Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!caip!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!lll-lcc!qantel!vixie!paul From: paul@vixie.UUCP (Paul Vixie Esq) Newsgroups: net.micro,net.micro.ns32k Subject: Re: Symmetrics s375 Message-ID: <105@vixie.UUCP> Date: Wed, 25-Jun-86 03:15:50 EDT Article-I.D.: vixie.105 Posted: Wed Jun 25 03:15:50 1986 Date-Received: Sat, 28-Jun-86 07:55:38 EDT References: <1322@brl-smoke.ARPA> Reply-To: paul@vixie.UUCP (Paul Vixie Esq) Organization: Vixie Enterprises, San Mateo, Calif Lines: 141 Xref: watmath net.micro:14931 net.micro.ns32k:34 Summary: Symmetric 375 pseudo-review In article <1322@brl-smoke.ARPA> lacasse@rand-unix.arpa writes: > >RE: > We got a flier from an outfit in San Jose, CA called Symmetrics that > sells 4.2 Unix machines using National Semi's 32000 series chips for $5k > to $10k. My question is, does anyone has seen the little machines? Are > they for real? We are thinking of a getting a few sight unseen which is > not very wise and I was hoping some out there could help us. > >I saw one at a Usenix meeting. It seemed to work, but I didn't really >test it. It was very small, and had good specs for the money. As I recall, >it had 4M Ram, 50M Disk, FULL 4.2 (no subsetting!), an ethernet port, >a 1M floppy, a connector for scci drives/tapes, a connector for more >floppies, and an ethernet connection. At the time they wanted $9K if paid >up front, and $10K with P.O. > >If you buy some, please let us know how you like them. Well, *I* bought one, and this message intends to let you know how I like it. Disclaimer: except for buying the machine, I have no connection (financial, personal, or otherwise) to Symmetric Computer Systems. I do expect to benefit from people buying machines, since a large installed base usually means cheaper and more plentiful software. I'll not bias this "review" from that or any other motive, however -- but you'll have to take my word on it. Then again, what else would you do? The Box: about 20 lbs, H 7" x W 14" x D 12" has scope-type handle for carrying 32016 (32-bit internal, 16-bit external bus) 32 or 64-bit floating point; 200000+ flops virtual memory; up to 16Mb per process 2 megabytes, 10 megahertz, no wait states 4 serial ports, up to 19200 or 38400 (but not both in the same kernal. odd.) 1 parallel port (comes with centronics-type cable) 1 floppy drive (mine's a teac) at 800K formatted 1 hard drive (mine's a 86Mb fuji; 50Mb rodime is std) 1 floppy port (you could add three more drives here) 1 hard drive port (any ST506-type will do; there is a connector inside for a third drive but they didn't bring it out to the rear panel) The OS: Berkeley 4.2, sort of. Actually Genix 4.1 (from BSD 4.1) enhanced 'til it works like BSD 4.2 with a few 4.3 goodies. it compiled 2.10.3, 4.3 rn, microemacs, kermit, and some MSDOS crudgle, all with "BSD 4.2" enabled in the respective makefiles. i didn't have to modify any of it. [as it happened, I *did* modify kermit, but it turned out to be unneccessary] Languages: a gold mine. cc, pc, asm, franz lisp, prolog, apl, basic, something called CRL and/or Pearl, f77. Ethernet: my box is the "OEM"-type, which means: it costs $4K less it comes without official BSD documentation (owner's manual and online man pages only) it has no ethernet hardware (software's here though) Mass Storage: the standard box comes with a 50Mb/40ms rodime drive. this drive is quieter than mine, but for an extra $1200 i got a 86Mb/25ms fujitsu drive. i pile pillows atop the machine when i go to sleep -- otherwise the drive noise is very evil. NOTE: the 50Mb drive is "virtually noiseless" compared to mine. The Company: SCS is very small -- but the people are Extremely Competent. The man who designed the machine and ported the OS worked for NS while the original 32k/genix/cc design/porting was going on - so he knew what he wanted from this little box. He had time to demo my machine for me when I picked it up, and he Really Knows His Stuff. Repairs: alas, my machine was imperfect: the battery-backed-up-clock was running wild when the machine was powered off; it gained a week every eight hours. not critical: I just set it every time I booted until SCS made time to repair it (about two days, really). When I brought it in, they fixed it without any major effort [under warrantee, obviously]. Speed: ugh. cc grinds, a lot. compiling kermit in parallel on this machine and a vaxstation-2 was astounding: the uvax II beat my 375 by a factor of three. otherwise, it's just like being on an unloaded 750 (which aint much these days, 'til you look at the size and cost of the machine in question). Genix: is evil. I'm glad I didn't buy any of the other 32016/Genix boxes around. This OS has a slightly nonstandard a.out file format, which means: GNU Emacs' cutesy tricks won't work; sendmail.fc isn't in the format expected by sendmail (this has a workaround: did you know that sendmail will compile sendmail.cf each time it runs if sendmail.fc is zero-length?); cdb doesn't work; lisp's "import .o file" doesn't work. BSD 4.2: is coming. In July. At which point the a.out nastiness will disappear; the compilers will go faster (something called the Berkeley Language Suite or some such -- never having been a 4.1 user, I didn't realize how fast the 4.2 compilers were in comparison). I would have regarded the July promise as "Real Soon Now" except that I've met the man who's doing the work, and I believe him. Summary: if I didn't have a new OS coming in a month or so, I'd be very unhappy with this machine -- it's usable but not astounding in its performance or OS completeness (i.e., I don't have the .o files to build my kernal, or the .c files for UUCP dialing...) However, the machine runs, runs well, runs reliably, and some- time in July will run much faster. I can carry it off to work, UUCP or Kermit source onto it at 19200, bring it home and play all night. For now I'll say "recommended". When I get the real live OS, I'll probably be saying "highly recommended". Prices: are confusing, but let's try: With Ethernet: $9450, $8495 prepaid (quantity discounts) Without: $5550, $4995 prepaid (no quantity discounts) 86Mb drive: add $1200 140Mb drive: add $3450 8Mb RAM: add $2800 SCSI port: add $600 Source code: add $2000 (educational institution price) Symmetric: After all that, prices and all, I have no rules left to break (if I am) by including their address. I stress again, however, that I have no connection to Symmetric other than as a satis- fied customer. Their address is: Symmetric Computer Systems 1620 Oakland Road, Suite D200 San Jose, CA 95131 (408) 279-0700 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Vixie {hplabs,dual}!qantel!vixie!paul ^^|^^ +----- my S375