Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg From: jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) Newsgroups: net.micro.atari16 Subject: Re: Query Message-ID: <503@elmgate.UUCP> Date: Tue, 5-Aug-86 09:00:25 EDT Article-I.D.: elmgate.503 Posted: Tue Aug 5 09:00:25 1986 Date-Received: Tue, 5-Aug-86 22:48:24 EDT References: <2023@calmasd.CALMA.UUCP> <8607311755.AA18885@ames-nas.ARPA> Organization: Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, NY Lines: 177 Summary: Adding my two cents to the how's the ST computer stack up In article <8607311755.AA18885@ames-nas.ARPA>, fouts@AMES-NAS.ARPA writes: > > Well, I've only had my 1040ST for three weeks, but I'll give you > my first impressions of the machine. > > (First, my background: I work for NASA as an OS Guru, and work > with Cray, Amdahl, Vax, Sun and SGI Un*x systems every day. I'm > writing this on a MacUgly (Lisa with MacWorks,) my officemate has an > AT, and other people here have Amiga's. I have owned a (currently > broken) Heathkit MS-DOS (NOT PC compatible) machine for several years, > and was looking for a fast machine to use in music composition/MIDI > control when I bought my ST.) > > Let me try to answer your questions. My background: Sun UNIX, PC/MSDOS, HP Stuff, and have owned an ST and an Amiga since last fall > > 1) Religious responses: I have had my MacUgly for over a year, > and still find it difficult to get simple programs working, because the > > As far as Amiga versus ST is concerned, the Amiga is a somewhat > better machine, but the cost difference is greater than the quality > difference. Also, most of the quality difference comes in color > graphics, and I don't care about such. I prefer the mono system. > > Of course, what clinched it for me was the MIDI port. The Amiga is the more competent machine. The Amiga's system software is at LEAST an order of magnitude more robust than the ST's. On the other hand, for pure computation the ST is a wee bit faster. However, the extra money for the Amiga is well spent. So much for religion. > > 2) Religious responses from haters. (NOT APPLICABLE) > I like the ST, ALOT. Just not as much as the Amiga. > 3) Availability of good word-processing software. > > Your choice of word processor is also a religious issue. There's > 1-ST word, which is mediocre, and I have micro emacs which is a text > editor, not a word processor. There are others, but I haven't tried > them. > Both fall flat on their chips in this area. For WP'ing, if that's your MAJOR application a PC clone may be worth a look. > 4) Reliability (hardware, OS & applications) > > Well, a month isn't long enough to tell about the hardware, but > mine hasn't broken yet. The software is reasonably reliable, GEM > doesn't seem to crash and most of the bugs visible to developers are > easy to work around. I use OSS Personal Pascal, and it only has a few > bugs, and usually performs better than promised. > Amiga has OS bugs too. The difference between Atari and CBM-Amiga is CBM-Amiga is activly pursuing fixing the bugs. So far Atari has ROM'd them and has seem to have said 'BUGS? Too bad..' Hardware. My 520ST is an early one so I had the loose chips syndrome. That has been rectified by new chip carriers. My Amiga is a pre-production model. Even so (or maybe because of this) my Amiga has been rock solid. No failures at all. > 5) Sources of info > > Atari maintains a buletin board (The base number is (408)745-5308. > Neil Harris also appears to pay attention to all (CompuServe, Source, > Well, UUCP, etc) possible general networks and is reasonable about > answer questions. I haven't tried ATARI user support yet. There are a > number of good user's groups. There is an ST specific magazine, and > START (a quarterly full of software published by ANTIC) as well as > Antic. Of course there are the ABACUS books, and I suppose other > sources. Same goes for the Amiga and then some. Real system documentation that has CBM-Amiga's blessing is available form $99 to $450 depending on what you buy, and who you get it from. Doc's are much better (subjective I suppose) for the Amiga (less contradictions, more examples, etc). Two magazines Amazing Computing (Hackers), Amiga World ('USER's'). > > 6) Comparisons with the Amiga, PC, IBM 1401 :-), etc. > Well I don't know about the 1401, but my first computer was a > 1620, and the ST blows it away. :-) > As far as the AMIGA/ST comparison; The Amiga does better/faster > color graphics, but the ST does clearer mono. The Amiga has a better > sound chip, but the ST does MIDI. The Amiga has fancy custom > coprocessors, but the ST is more approachable. True, th ST is more approachable, at first. Then you quickly realize all the nice services Amiga built in to the OS and all the choices available to you as to how you want your application to work/look. Then you look at GEM for the same choices/services and quickly realize just how 'unapproachable' GEM can be. >The ATARI hard disk is > real. There's currently more ATARI software available. In all, the > Amiga is a better piece of hardware, but not enough better to justify > the price. The Amiga is fully expandable. All it takes is $$$$. Hard disks, RAM (up to 8meg), frame grabbers, digitizers(SP?) both sound and video, card cages (although quite large), 68020/68881 boards, etc. Currently the definitly is more Atari software. That should change, but I'm not a fortune teller. > As far as PC's are concerned, the only advantage a PC has is a > huge amount of software. If you buy an AT (or clone) and max it out, > you can spend 5-6K and have almost as good a machine as 1500$ worth of > ST. . . One other PC advantage is the availability of software that uses the 8087 and 80287. important for number crunching application. And of course the huge variety of plug boards for just about any application. > 7) How fast is sofware becoming available (PD & Purchased) > There is a huge amount of PD Software. Much more than when the > Mac was a year old. Most of it is very good, well written, etc. I > have both the PD Forth, and XLisp and use both. I disagree somewhat. Most of the ST PD software seems poor to me and rarly includes the source for it. On the other hand the Amiga programmers seem much more willing to post both binary AND source, thereby allowing you to modify or enhance it to suit your tastes. Maybe AMIGA programmer's are just more experianced in C, I don't know. I do know that I have aquired nearly 15 megabytes of PD source for the Amiga and some of it is VERY good indeed. > > I don't have as much experience with commercial software, although > it is certainly there. The only thing I have is OSS Personal Pascal, > which I highly recommend. I can also recommend MegaMax C although it has it's problems with complex code (bit fields, function pointers, and some other obscure and not so obscure bugs). Further TDI's Modula 2 seems nice, but I haven't had the time to really use it. I must agree OSS PP is very usable indeed. I too have little in the way of commercial applications for either machine. I just enjoy hackin' 8^) I do enjoy Ageis Images on the Amiga. > I have seen a lot of stuff in the ANTIC catalog, and most of it > exists. (I. E. I've seen it for sale at my local ATARI dealer.) Dealers around the Rochester NY area don't seem to have any of this either. Further, in my user's group, I heard complaint's about very slow ANTIC service. > 8) Compatability of peripherals > This is where the ST really seems to loose. It isn't big enough > (yet) for a big aftermarket in peripherals, so there aren't many second > sources, except for the hard disks. The expansion kit isn't out yet, > so there aren't many places to put them anyway, and ATARI seems to have > gone out of their way to make it hard to substitute monitors, although > most of this was to make the machine cheaper to build. Remember the intial cost difference in the Amiga? Expansion support is a small part of that. The ST's DMA port is still not the same as the Amiga CPU Bus connector. Close but no cigar. > > A) Anything else. > I really like both the ST and the Amiga. If I could buy only one I'd go Amiga but if funding precludes this, the ST is a good substitute. How we've help a bit. -- Jeff Gortatowsky {allegra,seismo}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company