Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!caip!ll-xn!mit-amt!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!uw-vlsi!li From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Newsgroups: net.women,net.sci Subject: Re: Why are there so few [female|black] physicists? Message-ID: <315@uw-vlsi.ARPA> Date: Mon, 21-Jul-86 16:07:43 EDT Article-I.D.: uw-vlsi.315 Posted: Mon Jul 21 16:07:43 1986 Date-Received: Fri, 25-Jul-86 01:23:49 EDT References: <1970@brl-smoke.ARPA> <320@rtech.UUCP> Reply-To: li@uw-vlsi.UUCP (Phyllis Li) Organization: UW/NW VLSI Consortium, Seattle Lines: 93 Xref: watmath net.women:11514 net.sci:1343 The reason that there are so few female physicists is that so few females are interested in physics or taught to be interested in physics. In my high school there were four females in a class of 27 in an advanced physics class and at Caltech I was the only girl that made it into the high level physics sections as a freshman; and the stuff got so high powered that I dropped out of it because I hadn't either the time or the interest to continue at a research level. The professor encouraged me to stay for as long as I felt comfortable and was willing at any time to help me with any problems or questions that I might have had. He was equally available to the males of the class. For a time Caltech was rumoured to be lowering their standards just to allow more females and blacks to participate. It was untrue, they actually allowed people in that didn't qualify at the time of admission, but were required to take classes from the school the summer before. The result was disaster. More females dropped out, practically all of the blacks dropped out, and the class that graduated that year had started as one of the largest in the school turned out to be one of the smallest. Another note is that most of the classes that enter Caltech enter with a 5:1 ratio or better of females to males; however the overall ratio is still around 7 or 6:1. Simply, more females drop out, on a ratio, than guys. And from my own experiences, it isn't because of any sexual discrimination on the part of the professors or the TAs. Others may have different perceptions of the situation. >In article <502@midas.UUCP> jeffw@midas.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) writes: >>All very righteous and high-minded, but would you really feel just as >>insulted if you were given a chance you didn't deserve as you would if >>you were denied a chance you deserved? I sure wouldn't, and I would be >>very skeptical of anyone else saying they would. Well, then, be skeptical of me. I was severlly insulted by the employment divisions of two companys that offered me high paying jobs that had nothing that they needed done, that simply took advantage of the fact that I was a double minority and formerly a student without taxable income (some states with employment drives give Big tax breaks for hiring someone that was formerly unemployed or employed below a subsitance level). If I had taken those jobs I would have had saved them more money and fulfilled enough Quotas to make it worth their while to hire me and not have me to anything. The assumption that I resented was that I *would* do nothing. And, being above all an arrogant Techer, that angered me enough after a cursory questioning of my supposed soon-to-be boss to say to the face of the employment manager that I was not going to take their job and why. I agree with Dan Green in that if I couldn't do a job, even if it paid megabucks, I wouldn't take it, no matter how string-free it looked because I know that I am a representative of females in high tech and that if I louse up that will reflect on others in the field. We *are* relatively new to these fields and I know that I am still watched for slipups, foulups and like misfortunes and used to for future consideration for hiring of females in the companys I go to. Also, for the jobs that really aren't there would have been a vast feeling of resentment amoung the majority workers that, hey! she's getting paid more and better than I am *just* because she's female! And I and any other female engineer would have to combat that resentment at any time we tried to work with others in the company. My solution to the problem? I think that the AA is right to try and integrate people on the work level; however, it would be nice if they could curb the problems with the discrimination between majorities and minorities that give the minorities undeserved positions, like quotas. I think it right to help those minorities that didn't get in eventhough they have the same qualifications; but utterly wrong to make it so that unqualified minorities get what a qualified majority tried to get. I think quotas are dumb, now, they were necessary to just get people to see that minorities *can* do the jobs; however, part of me thinks that they are now just as much of a detriment as they are a help. I think that if one really wanted to make sure that there were more minority physicists, engineers, or mathematician that they should start at the school level. Make is possible for a scientist or engineer to teach at the high school or junior high school level without thinking that they have sacrificed a career for it. Have people that love the stuff teach at high minority concentrated schools, have them actively recruit females. A dream, perhaps; but that is the only place that will have any overall affect. At the moment the active movement to get minorities into college is a good thing as well. I think that the only way that minorities will be really accepted is if we do what we can to be the best people there are. Sad, but I still think that for a good, long while, that bit about a woman having to do better than a man to get appreciated is going to go on for a while and there is nothing that the AA is doing to help that. However, I think that this country is working on it. Liralen -- "Happiness is getting married to ones best friend." USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa