Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!caip!topaz!ll-xn!mit-amt!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro From: dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) Newsgroups: net.singles,net.sci Subject: SCIgh... (was PSIgh...) Message-ID: <578@ulowell.UUCP> Date: Wed, 23-Jul-86 05:49:32 EDT Article-I.D.: ulowell.578 Posted: Wed Jul 23 05:49:32 1986 Date-Received: Fri, 25-Jul-86 03:26:18 EDT Organization: Miskatonic University Lines: 95 Xref: watmath net.singles:14653 net.sci:1350 Summary: another in my line of flames... Phone : (617) 937-0551 Usenet: ...!{wanginst,masscomp}!ulowell!dobro Flame-To: /dev/null/... Reply-To: dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) USMail: P.O.Box 8524, Lowell, Ma. 01853 These comments are in reply to posting #641. You try and figure out who said what: >> Now, I beleive with a high degree of surety that Sunny & friends >> are deluding themselves; ... >> I find that the thought of people believing that for which they >> have no good reason to believe saddening. Aaargh! This is an idea that I find extremely annoying/angering. That someone else can tell you that what you beleive through your own senses is less valid than what they perceive through theirs. If I see something and you don't, how can you tell me that I'm the one seeing things wrong? Or, how could I tell you? Each person perceptions is effectively an oppinion. An opinion CANNOT be wrong. It is simply that: what someone thinks or beleives. > I am sad to say that many professional scientists have been taken > in by supposed psychics who were later exposed as frauds. I agree. However, many patients were also treated by doctor who were later exposed to be frauds. SO, the REAL doctors (read: legit) set up a group to police those calling themselves 'doctors' and to prevent this kind of fraudulent practice. The fact that many were frauds, DOES NOT IMPLY that there were no actual doctors ou there. I hope I do not need to clarify this analogy any further... > If and when you supply appropriate evidence, I will beleive > in it [psychic energy], but until then I won't [beleive] I (and hopefully others) are not trying to tell you that YOU MUST beleive us. We are trying to say that you shouldn't say what WE believe is invalid. We say there is psi energy, prove to us there isn't and we will stop beleiving, until then we will beleive... > If psychic ability were universally inherent, as you say, since > its benefits are enourmanous (...), psychic phenomena should be > prevalent in most world cultures. Well, the talent of "intelligence", "patience", "politeness" and other things are also of enormous benefits. That doesn't mean to say that they exist in great quantities. Sorry. But the analogy still holds... > Most of them [psychic activities & abilites] I consider > non-supernatural results of the workings of the human mind > (which does work in some astonishing ways, if not necessarily > those that she would have us beleive) We (those with psi abilites AS WELL AS those who support them) never claim (I speak for myself, some others) the abilites to be supernatural. That word implies 'beyond nature' or more cearly 'beyond that which can occur within the Laws' What we do claim is that these abilites are skills (developed) or talents (born with) that are Para-normal. That word implies 'beside normal' or more clearly 'other than that which can be explained by normal means', which is a heck of a lot less pretentious. > In sum, all I can say is: If you're that sure [speaking to psi's], > gather up the passel of your friends and go to Randi. > Some of the effects you mention can definately be verified. This is another old, old point. A composer is recognized as being able to come up with (depending upon skill) magnificent works. But sit him down on a random day and put start recording, and see how well he does. His ability is documented! But that doesn't mean it can be put on the spot. To quote, he cannot simply say "Today, I will be brilliant". That doesn't imply that he can't. --- At this point I wish to apologize to the net.world for this whole discourse. I am simply sick and tired of the common attitude that exists. However, at this point MOD.PSI exists and is running, so hopefully this innane finger-pointing will come to an end. Those carzies of us who are willing to accept other ideas will go off to our own little group. 'Nough said. Gryphon ------------------------------- Disclaimer: I am simply a figment of my immagination, and cannot therefore have and opinion. "Far beyond human ability to classify, or comprehend..."