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From: timlee@bnrmtv.UUCP (Timothy Lee)
Newsgroups: net.women,net.sci
Subject: Re: Why are there so few [female|black] physicists?
Message-ID: <546@bnrmtv.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 29-Jul-86 14:02:42 EDT
Article-I.D.: bnrmtv.546
Posted: Tue Jul 29 14:02:42 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 1-Aug-86 07:45:19 EDT
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Xref: watmath net.women:11689 net.sci:1398

> > Similar situations happen in colleges and universities.  The emphasis nowadays
> > is on `enrollment and retention', a euphamism for admitting as many targeted-
> > group students as possible, then making sure that they stay as long as
> > possible.  ...
> >          .....  such a 5 year student counts 5/4 as much as a 4 year student
> > in figuring quotas).  The result is that the really well qualified student
> > who would have gotten in and succeeded anyway to feel inferior because of
> > his/her race/sex.  The presence of a large number of `quota admits' lowers
> > the college community's perception of the student's race/sex, thus causing
> > others to see him/her less favorably than a student from a non-targeted
> > group.  Those who are the actual `quota admits' would face the same prejudice,
> > but also would likely receive an education of marginal value (the easiest
> > major and course selection).
> 
> I don't know where you get your figures, but at the school I attended (Stevens
> Tech, Hoboken, NJ) there were minority students who were encouraged to enroll
> despite slightly lower high school scores. These students were  required to
> attend remedial classes the summer before freshman year, and received additional
> tutoring during freshman year. They most emphatically were not steered into
> easier majors (unless you consider chemical engineering, say,  easier than
> computer science) and they took the same classes as the rest of the student
> body (the Stevens curriculum is so structured that all the engineering students
> take pretty much the same courses until junior year.) Some of these students
> flunked out, some were average, and some were *outstanding*, not much different
> from the rest of the stdent body. As for whether the extra tutoring is unfair,
> tutoring was available to all students, and required of those who received a
> GPA of less than 2.0 after the first semester of freshman year. The tutoring
> was the same; indeed the tutors were often the same; I know, I was a tutor in
> both programs.
> 
> Finally, the situation you speak about is not much different than that
> practiced at some schools, including the Ivies: student (of whatever race
> or sex) does not really have the grades, but in the admission form essay
> or in interviews displays original thinking. The school thinks this may
> be a late bloomer, or someone not very good at taking tests. School
> gives student benefit of the doubt, admits student. This is common
> practice, especially at top schools, has been for a long time. Do you
> object to that also?
> -- 
> Marcel-Franck Simon		ihnp4!{mhuxr, hl3b5b}!mfs
> 
> On or about August 1, I will no longer have access to mhuxr and hence the net.
> If you want to reply, comment, disagree, rebut or flame, do so quickly, or
> send email to hl3b5b.

The original message referred mainly to the colleges' and universities' motives
with respect to female|black|hispanic|native|etc students.  Many colleges,
especially comprehensive public colleges in liberal states, will want to be
able to say `we have x% female|black|hispanic|native|etc students'.  Many of
those admitted are not admitted because the school thinks they can do well, but
because they will raise the percentages.  The school doesn't really care about
the minority students, just about its own PR.

As for Stevens Tech, I don't think it is either comprehensive or public (but
correct me if I'm wrong), so it isn't subject to the political pressures that
comprehensive public (ie, supposed to serve the general state population)
college/university must face.  Thus Stevens Tech can do whatever it thinks
can help female|black|hispanic|native|etc students without worrying about
`hey, why do you only have y% female|black|hispanic|native|etc students? enroll
some more !'