Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!caip!pyrnj!mirror!gabriel!inmet!janw From: janw@inmet.UUCP Newsgroups: net.sci Subject: Re: Population control Message-ID: <26500044@inmet> Date: Thu, 21-Aug-86 20:32:00 EDT Article-I.D.: inmet.26500044 Posted: Thu Aug 21 20:32:00 1986 Date-Received: Thu, 28-Aug-86 06:04:33 EDT References: <543@gargoyle.UUCP> Lines: 89 Nf-ID: #R:gargoyle.UUCP:-54300:inmet:26500044:000:3838 Nf-From: inmet.UUCP!janw Aug 21 20:32:00 1986 [carnes@gargoyle.UUCP ] >But the view that everyone should be allowed to have as many >children as they want, with no attempt to use government to in- >fluence or control the population level, is not a view that is >very compatible with a good life for future generations of human- >ity. Why ? Even assuming the - quite discredited by experience - resource depletion forecasts; assuming, further, that the answer to such depletion is not technological innovation but limiting population ? Making both these incorrect assumptions, I still don't see what government has to do with it. Zero population growth has been "achieved" many times, in many places, and without government intervention - sometimes as a result of an increase in living standards. As for the ethical side of the question, I wonder how you would view the following variation of the top paragraph: >But the view that everyone should be allowed to live as long they >want, with no attempt to use government to influence the popula- >tion level by controlling lifespan, is not a view that is very >compatible with a good life for future generations of humanity. Do you prefer, for instance, compulsory sterilization of women who've had their two children, to compulsory euthanasia for people who have lived out their threescore and ten? To me, both ideas seem equally "Nazi-like" and "abhorrent", noth- ing to choose between them. I wonder if you gag at either ... or at anything at all, as long as the divine Government is doing it. Seriously: where do you draw the line, and why? Let me state my own position: (1) People who predict depletion of soil, oil etc., predicted these before, and were incorrect. So often before, and so incorrect, that they need not be taken seriously. The moment when we are expected to run out of a given resource is usually a decade or two ahead. It was there many decades ago, and still is. Right now I am using their own method - extrapolation, only I am using it on their own predictions. It predicts that a century from now, gloom and doom will still be just around the corner. (2) Even if (1) were wrong, resources that do get depleted can be replaced through human ingenuity. Human brains are the universal resource; the more of them, the better. If our ancestors had re- duced their population by Watt, Tesla, Burbank, and a few others, there would be less, not more, goodies per capita today. (3) If (1) and (2) were wrong, population could be effectively controlled without government intervention. (4) If (1), (2) and (3) were wrong, it would be better to have famine, disease and war reduce population, than to submit to government tyranny. Losing freedom is losing everything, and a government that does not stop at one's skin, will stop nowhere. One can argue about absolute property rights - but a property right in one's own body is surely the most absolute. Even the extreme socialist programs used to call for nationalized means of production - but not of *reproduction*. People argue about abortion - but the argument is whether the woman's rights collide with those of another being. No such argu- ment exists over the right *not* to perform abortion. Coercive birth control means either conception control or forced abortions. In both cases it is the ultimate slavery. It is treat- ing the people as government's cattle. What was that quote again? >But the view that everyone should be allowed to have as many ^^^^^^^ >children as they want, with no attempt to use government to in- Allowed ! You've come a long way, baby. This is offered as a recipe for a *good* life for generations of humanity. And it's not a temporary restriction, it is forevermore. Happy socialist vistas. Jan Wasilewsky