Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!lll-crg!lll-lcc!qantel!ptsfa!ptsfd!djo From: djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers,talk.politics.misc Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb Message-ID: <462@ptsfd.UUCP> Date: Tue, 16-Sep-86 19:32:20 EDT Article-I.D.: ptsfd.462 Posted: Tue Sep 16 19:32:20 1986 Date-Received: Wed, 17-Sep-86 01:59:51 EDT References: <1071@hoptoad.uucp> <20812@styx.UUCP> <1076@hoptoad.uucp> Reply-To: djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) Distribution: net Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco Lines: 74 Xref: mnetor net.sf-lovers:8500 talk.politics.misc:136 In article <1076@hoptoad.uucp> Tim Maroney writes: >Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a fundamentalist >inventing excuses for the slaughter of the Midianites. And you say Berch descends to insult? >Heinlein was clear; >he did not dryly note a few positive effects; he stated outright that the >nuclear war was "good for the country". Go back and check the quote if you >don't believe me (and I'll grant you, it's hard to believe). He then went >on to say that it had "turned the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and >that the net effect would be to "improve the breed". Not hesitantly, not >dryly, not in passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that >nuclear war would be a wonderful thing! > >I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, but you simply >must face facts. The book says what I quoted it as saying, not what you >would like it to have said. Nor does it say what you would like it to have said. The book does not say that the war is a good thing; it says (quoting from memory) that the war may have been good for the country. May have is a subjunctive that casts a possible doubt on all that follows; and good for the country is not an absolute "good" (unless you suggest that the author of, among other things THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST ("we put no faith in princes"), and FRIDAY regards the good of any one political unit as an absolute good). Semantic analysis can go only so far, of course, and next I will suggest that while Farnham meant all he said, _Heinlein_ is speaking ironically. And "Pie in the Sky" is even more unambiguous: >"There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of ours which >would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the Hiroshima >treatment." You can twist and turn and try to divert the issue into long >lists of irrelevant Heinlein statements on other matters (which you did, and >which I have omitted), but these are the things he said, and you can't >change that by wishing it away. > And that passage is precisely where I claim Heinlein is being ironic. It is the classic form of irony -- indeed, to speak in such a blithe and childish manner, of such a serious subject, is one of the classic markers of irony. If the irony is not obvious, blame your lack of classical education, not Heinlein. Not that I suggest that Heinlein is entirely sarcastic; no, this is the much more difficult trope of irony; Heinlein is indeed saying that there are a great many things wrong with modern civilization. But the main problem is that you seem not to have read the essay. Heinlein goes on to name several of the things that the "Hiroshima treatment" would free us from -- then goes on to name a greater number of awfulnesses that would result from it. If you had read the damn essay, you would know that it was intended to wake people up, to tell them that they'd damn well better do something to PREVENT an atomic war. But, no. You, who are full of accusations of hero-worship, took the quotation directly out of context as it was presented to you, and believed those who told you how it was intended. Think for yourself, buddy. That's what Heinlein's been trying to tell us all for years and years -- and that's what politicians, on BOTH sides, left and right, don't want us to do. Come on... Please... The Roach Without Fear aka djo@ptsfd "I was born in these streets. They called me darebug...it was a nickname, but they didn't know what it would come to mean...I WILL NOT BE DESTROYED! I'm coming, lynchpin...I'm coming..."