Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!prls!pyramid!isieng!kiki From: kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) Newsgroups: talk.religion,net.religion Subject: Re: Hell (An Alienation from God? No.) Message-ID: <288@isieng.UUCP> Date: Wed, 10-Sep-86 13:32:02 EDT Article-I.D.: isieng.288 Posted: Wed Sep 10 13:32:02 1986 Date-Received: Fri, 12-Sep-86 02:46:43 EDT Expires: Wed, 1-Oct-86 03:00:00 EDT References: <322@mc0.UUCP> <977@unirot.UUCP> <973@hoptoad.uucp> Reply-To: kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) Followup-To: Curt Mayer Organization: Integrated Solutions, San Jose, CA Lines: 65 Keywords: Heaven, Hell, and Revelations Xref: linus talk.religion:97 net.religion:10785 Summary: Why is there scary parts in the Bible? In article <1062@hoptoad.uucp> curt@hoptoad.UUCP (Curt Mayer) writes: >In article <4257@ukma.UUCP> slg@ukma.UUCP (Sean Gilley) writes: >> >>There has been a lot of discussion recently about whether or not >>Hell is simply an alienation from God, or whether it is an actual >>punishment... > >can you say symbol? i knew you could. in revelation, there are oodles of >stuff that are obviously symbolic, but you decide to draw the line here >to try to scare the bejeezus out of 7 year olds in sunday school. > >I am firmly convinced that jesus of nazareth was a happening kind of guy >that had a kind heart and got nailed to a tree. > >on the other hand, paul was a nasty shit who twisted the words of a good man >to his economic and egotistical advantage and he didn't even do that well >enough to avoid getting kilt. > >the first 4 books of the New Testament make me feel warm and good, but the last >of them are just totally transparent scare tactics. > > curt There are a lot of books in the new testament that make me feel "warm and good" and others that scare me because they show the power or the "fear" of God. God is definitely a powerful and just God, and I think it is important to recognize that fact. The Bible is instruction for man. Life isn't one big warm fuzzy. There are many things to learn that are difficult, painful, and often downright scary. Being a Christian doesn't change that. But being a Christian guaranteesthat we will not suffer eternally. The same book, Revelations, that scares the "7 year olds" also provides a beautiful description of what heaven is in Chpt.21"Behold the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be his people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and they shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away. Paul in the new testament tries to guide and provide instruction for Christians, not all his teachings and writings are intended to make one feel "warm and good. But in Thessalonians 4:13, 14 Paul says: "But we do not want you to be uniformedbrethren about those who sleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who haveno hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." When Paul talks about sleep here it is a *symbol* for death as in Dan. 12:1 "and many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awaken, these to eternal life." In death the body "sleeps," but the spirit lives whether Christian or non-Christian. Thus Paul is simply laying out all the information, not just the positive. He makes it clear that there are alternatives and choices to be made. There is an excellent story in the Bible which describes a rich man in hell asking Moses to tell his family (on earth) about what hell is like so that they will know before it's too late. Moses tells the man that they have already been told, it is in the Bible and in their conscience. They know, and nothing he can do would change their minds. They need to choose. So Curt, I think that there are definitely some scary things in the Bible that should make the reader think twice about what he/she is reading, especially about the matter of death. Billy Graham in a recent book wrote: "The torturing, tormenting fear of death is a condition that is perfectly normal for anyone who has never come to Christ. Death is an experience from which people instinctively shrink. Yet for the Christina the fear is removed. He has the assurance that the sins for which he would be judged have been dealt with, whereas the non-Christian has no such assurance. I do not look forward to the prospect of dying, but I do look forward to death itself. It will be a glorious release. It will be the fulfillment of everything I have ever longed for. The Scriptures says, 'In Thy presence is fullness of joy. At Thy right hand there are pleasures evermore' (Ps. 16:11)."