Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!lll-lcc!qantel!hplabs!pyramid!octopus!pete From: pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: one more time... (circular reasoning sure is popular!) Message-ID: <223@octopus.UUCP> Date: Mon, 15-Sep-86 15:07:17 EDT Article-I.D.: octopus.223 Posted: Mon Sep 15 15:07:17 1986 Date-Received: Fri, 19-Sep-86 00:41:43 EDT References: <1500@mtx5a.UUCP> <1133@cybvax0.UUCP> <222@octopus.UUCP> <1146@cybvax0.UUCP> Reply-To: pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) Organization: Octopus Enterprises, Cupertino, CA Lines: 74 In article <1146@cybvax0.UUCP> mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) writes: >In article <222@octopus.UUCP> pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) writes: >> Sure, 'morality' is *a* point of Christianity. However, *your* opinion of >> what is important about Christianity is far less important than *Christ's* >> opinion! Take a look at what Christ (Jesus) had to say, and you'll find that >> he was much more preoccupied with his death/resurrection/you-can-only-meet- >> God-thru-Me/your-relationship-with-God-is-what-counts message than with >> anything having to do with what we call 'morality'. > >We don't know Christ's opinion. Because he's dead, and all we have are ^^^^^^^ we know what He *said*. Does that not count? > [flame] reports written long after his death by [flame]. >As Tim Maroney pointed out, much more is written about JC's >moral teachings than about theological BS like godhood and resurrection. Is it quantity of analytical BS you want? Rather strange. I'm happily willing to ignore what others wrote/write about Jesus... look at what HE *said* and did. >> If you choose to reject Christ, or reject his message, that's your decision >> to make. But to try to water down the bible until it looks like every other >> religion out there is to do a grave injustice. > >It does look like every other religion out there. Really? Why do you then admit... >> There is only one unique >> thing about the Bible/Christianity that makes it any different than other >> religions: Jesus. >See? You admit it yourself. As do you. I'm glad we agree that Jesus is unique, which makes Christianity unique! (:-) I know I'm jumping to conclusions... I'm sure I haven't convinced you of much...) >> If he wasn't [god], then the Bible is just a pile of mostly-correct teachings >> (wrong at least in the case of who Jesus was), and we can all follow any >> 'moral'/religious code we feel like without looking back. >Exactly my point. I happen to like a bunch of Christian moral teachings >(and dislike some others.) But you've missed my point. What you like may be *moral* teachings, but they aren't at all unique to Christianity, as has been pointed out by others. The things in the Bible that look like everyday moral teachings are just that until they are accompanied by the means to achieve them through a relationship with Jesus. All religions based on a moral law (including the law of the old testament) fall apart eventually, because we are incapable of following a moral law perfectly. Jesus uniquely acts as the bridge/ambassador/certificate or whatever-you-want-to-call-it that allows us to have a relationship with God without being required to achieve moral perfection first. I think a lot of Christians are *very* confused on this point, which obviously confuses everybody else out there. To listen to Falwell, etc, you need to be morally perfect before (or immediately after) you become a Christian. That's *wrong*. The purpose of moral teachings ('the Law' as its put in the bible) is not to give us a bunch of rules that we should try to live by. The purpose of the Law is to show us that it is *impossible* for us to achieve moral perfection under our own strength/willpower/etc -- we can't get to heaven on our own power. Enough for now. Pete -- OOO __| ___ Peter Holzmann, Octopus Enterprises OOOOOOO___/ _______ USPS: 19611 La Mar Court, Cupertino, CA 95014 OOOOO \___/ UUCP: {hplabs!hpdsd,pyramid}!octopus!pete ___| \_____ Phone: 408/996-7746