Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!hplabs!qantel!ptsfa!ptsfd!djo From: djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) Newsgroups: net.misc Subject: Re: Poor People/Lazy People Message-ID: <501@ptsfd.UUCP> Date: Thu, 9-Oct-86 12:16:20 EDT Article-I.D.: ptsfd.501 Posted: Thu Oct 9 12:16:20 1986 Date-Received: Thu, 9-Oct-86 21:02:39 EDT References: <1010@cad.cs.cmu.edu> <1050001@hpspkla.HP.COM> <1079@kontron.UUCP> <2000@ihlpa.UUCP> <195@gouldsd.UUCP> Reply-To: djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) Distribution: na Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA Lines: 54 In article <195@gouldsd.UUCP> mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP (Marcus the Ranum) writes: > > There are two major problems with your line of reasoning: > >1) ...you are assuming some kind of universal morality,... >Simply put: this point is arguable, and depends entirely >on your moral/philosophical background. Actually, it is quite possible to derive a system of ethics (though never morals) from sheer pragmatism. >[I] refuse to give my position on the matter of absolute morality, since >that would tend to distract you from my main argument Ah. Thank you, oh Enlightened One, for not confusing our poor mortal brains with what only your Magnificent Mountain of Mentality can truly comprehend. We mortals need protection from that kind of confusion... >2) assume my point #1 is INCORRECT. In that case we do have a moral/ethical >imperative to succor our fellow man when he is in need. >Essentially, if you are so courageous as to be your brother's keeper, YOU >HAVE A MORAL IMPERATIVE to help EVERYONE that is needy, cold, wet, hungry, >poor, oppressed, imprisoned, denied the right to vote, beaten, etc, etc... > > in short, either you assume that you owe nobody anything, but can >occasionally opt to help out, or you MUST assume the burden of all humanity >as brothers. I think the first option in this case is the more sensible >one. The last person I recall hearing about who tried the second got nailed >to a tree, or something like that. Feh. Category errors abound. An ethical obligation to help does not necessarily entail an obligation to always place that help above all else. In Islam, for example, giving alms to the poor is a moral obligation for any believer who makes more than a bare living wage -- but there is a set formula for how much to give, and you do it in your own city, for your own poor. As for the guy on the tree, he had something to say about neighbors, if I recall. And as for more distant needy, there was something about removing the beam in one's own eye before going after the mote in someone else's. Oh: and this, "The poor you will have always." So much for the Great Society... >Live Free Nice trick, if you can do it. Bums manage pretty well, I believe. The Roach Without Fear "I am a child again -- the other children have a name for me, a name because I stay in and do my -- Hey! Get your damn finger out of my eye!"