Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!lll-lcc!qantel!hplabs!sdcrdcf!randvax!jeannie From: jeannie@randvax.UUCP (Jean Thomas) Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.singles Subject: Re: Taking control of pleasure Message-ID: <518@randvax.UUCP> Date: Mon, 15-Sep-86 14:17:29 EDT Article-I.D.: randvax.518 Posted: Mon Sep 15 14:17:29 1986 Date-Received: Tue, 23-Sep-86 01:01:05 EDT References: <554@rosevax.UUCP> <1953@mtgzy.UUCP> <2397@ihlpg.UUCP> Reply-To: jeannie@rand-unix.UUCP (Jean Thomas) Organization: Rand Corp., Santa Monica Lines: 94 Keywords: Always choices! Xref: linus soc.women:5 soc.singles:17 Summary: Whose responsibility is good sex? I've included a lot of the original posting as I believe most of it is germane, and it was difficult to cut any of it. I'd go further than the first sentence, however; I believe that until recently *most* women were (directly or indirectly) taught that sex for them wasn't *supposed* to be enjoyable. In article <2110@mtgzz.UUCP> eme@mtgzz.UUCP (e.m.eades) writes: >[in response to jamie I wrote] >>>...I agree that not enough women are taught how to enjoy sex. >>>Seeing has how that is the case, it behooves the more experienced >>>partner to help teach the less experienced one how to enjoy it.... >> >... My first experiences weren't very much fun. So I developed the >attitude that if my boyfriend wanted me to play with him fine, but I'd >just as soon be left alone. Well, one very patient SO spent a great deal >of time teaching/showing me that sex could be fun. (you want me to put >what where!!??? :^) Without the time and effort he spent I might still >be one of the "sex is something you have to grin and bear" women. >> >... Yes to a certain extent everyone is responsible >for their own pleasure. But to a certain extent you are also responsible >for your partner's pleasure. It can occasionally be hard to enjoy sex >with your partner's cooperation, let alone without it. Being inexperienced >makes it even harder.... >... I hadn't found a way to enjoy having someone fumbling >around in my crotch, so I decided that this obviously wasn't fun >for me so I won't do it. When I went out with someone else they >had a better idea of a way to do things without hurting me, thereby >teaching me that this could be fun. Even now it takes alot of >cooperation on the part of my partner for me to enjoy sex. If he >wasn't willing to take the time, or just wanted to "get his rocks >off" I doubt that I would be able to enjoy sex. >I don't think it unreasonable to expect the more experienced partner >to help the less experienced one. In cases where neither one is >particularly experienced, they just have to fumble along as best >they can. Wow! There is so much I want to say about all of the above, but (with great effort) I'll restrict myself to the following: I believe your experience is similar to that of many, if not most, women. I do, however, have a couple of "nits" I want to pick. (Please remember that I'm almost fanatical about semantics. I believe most of us are unaware of the implications of our words and think others understand what we mean, even if our words can be taken in more than one way.) (And yes, I, like everyone else, sometimes get screwed up in my *intent* to communicate clearly.) First, I agree with what I think is your intent, expressed above, regarding responsibility for pleasure. But I must disagree with your choice of words "you are also responsible for your partner's pleasure." I sincerely believe you are *responsible* only for your own. If you wish a mutually gratifying experience, you will probably *choose* to do a number of things that will heighten the experience for your partner, which will intensify the sharing/bonding. This is part of the synergy of a good sexual experience, much less a good sexual relationship: when you get more turned on, I get more turned on, so you get.... However, with all due respect, *I* am *not* *RESPONSIBLE* for my partner's pleasure. Second, with regard to the need for the inexperienced (or traumatized) to "fumble along." Several years ago I decided that altho I had pretty well worked thru (I thought) the aftermath of the trauma of having been abused and molested as a child (separate incidents) and violently raped when a 19-year-old virgin, there probably was a reason sex wasn't all that much fun for me most of the time. And I'm older than most in this group, so I had a lot of years invested in sex-is-OK-but-I-can-certainly-do-without-it. The single most freeing experience of my life was attending a 12-week course, the "Sexual Enrichment Experience," taught at the Center for Social and Sensory Learning in Tarzana, Calif. This is an accredited institute, with a professional (and caring) staff. The classes are small (10 max), attended primarily by professionals; my group included five therapists and two doctors. I'm not suggesting that this course is for everyone (and in fact you must "pass" an interview designed to determine whether it is appropriate); it may be too explicit for some. What I *am* suggesting is that there are alternatives (therapy, workshops, courses, etc.) to the "need to fumble." And the payoff is worth the research and follow-through.... Last, if there are any guys reading this wondering why they need to be bothered with all this (sensitivity to their partner's needs, etc.)--and I suspect, after reading this group for the last year, that there will be--I want to close with one more quote: >... frankly, if it's not fun the >majority of the time, it's going to alot harder for you to convince me >that I want to have sex. So if you want you can take the self serving >attitude of the [more] fun your partner has the more likely your partner will >want to have sex with you. -- * Choices, always choices *