Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!caip!elbereth!rutgers!seismo!rochester!ritcv!cci632!rb From: rb@cci632.UUCP (Rex Ballard) Newsgroups: soc.singles,soc.women Subject: Re: Feminists Message-ID: <477@cci632.UUCP> Date: Tue, 7-Oct-86 13:17:52 EDT Article-I.D.: cci632.477 Posted: Tue Oct 7 13:17:52 1986 Date-Received: Thu, 9-Oct-86 01:47:52 EDT References: <4107@reed.UUCP> <7428@sun.uucp> <153@endot.UUCP> <1944@ihlpa.UUCP> Reply-To: rb@ccird2.UUCP (Rex Ballard) Organization: CCI, Rochester Development, Rochester, NY Lines: 119 Xref: watmath soc.singles:381 soc.women:260 Summary: Loud noise, or sweet music? In article <1944@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) writes: >>> I hope people these days realize that it's entirely possible to >>> be a feminist without protesting everything. >Possible, but what with the way modern capitalism and patriarchy >are intertwined, it's difficult. Depending on one's point of view, it is possible to look at the progress made thus far. On the other hand, there are many facets of "feminism" (anti-sexism) that aren't getting the attention they should. The roles of MEN could be more closely examined. It is more than a little counterproductive to teach that women can be aggressive, assertive, and in control, and at the same time literally brainwash a man into thinking that, unless he is the "master", if he's somehow effeminate, if he isn't "in control" of every situation, he is somehow less of a man. The end result is both sexes fighting for control, and neither sex willing to give control. >>> I mean in the 70's everyone was more radical and it gave non-feminists >>> a bad taste in their mouths (so to speak). Some feminists just >>> haven't learned that screaming your views at some people don't make >>> them listen--if anything they block their ears completely. When one listens to the entire feminist view, and realizes all of the alteratives available to both men and women, what was "screaming" becomes "sweet music". Men are under less pressure to "prove their masculinity" in the various "Macho" ways. A man who wants to be a hair dresser, fashion designer, secretary, nurse, or even a homemaker doesn't have to feel that he is a "failure" or a "faggot" because he didn't become an engineer, lawyer, doctor, or at least truck driver instead. For women to acheive better standing, men have to feel comfortable with female superiors in the work-place, in school, in politics, and even at home. The indoctrination that men experience while growing up make this very difficult, but not impossible. >Well, they can take their bad taste out of their mouths and stick >it in their ears. That's a nice "soft-spoken" statement :-). Actually, if they (people offended by feminist views) would take the cotton out of their ears, and put it in their mouths, they might learn something. They might even support the cause. >Whoever came up with the notion of feminism as >some sort of bel canto operatic style? All the feminists I know >are soft-spoken, patient and articulate. I grew up in an earlier time, when "soft spoken" didn't get very far. In spite of this, after attending seminars by Warren Farrel, and a number of "true feminists", and learning how many areas could be changed, the whole package made a lot of sense. One version of the "true feminist" view puts it quite nicely. Essentially, men and women have been "brainwashed" by generations of teaching and tradition into playing certain "roles". The "knight in shining armor" rescues the "damsel in distress". The "knight" slays dragons, evil knights, and overcomes obsticles to prove his love, masculinity, and worthiness, while the "damsel" watches quietly in admiration. The "knight" protects the damsel from everything. There may have been a time when such "roles" were useful, but now the "Knight" is "protecting" the "damsel" from opportunities, growth, and access to power of her own. In some cases, the "damsel" might be stronger emotionally, intellectually, politically, or even physically, but for her to rescue the "knight", the "knight" must want, as well as need, to be rescued. Many men can't even accept assistance, let alone rescue. When one examines all of the various "roles" that men and women are conditioned to play, it can quickly be seen that "feminism" can be a good thing for everyone. Look at the "slogans" that are still being taught today. "A man's GOT TO fight his own battles" "A man's GOT TO stand up for himself" "A man's GOT TO show strength" "A man's GOT TO take control of the situation" "Sometimes you HAVE TO fight to be a man" "Real Men don't cry" "Real men don't show fear" And other such barf! Try plugging the word woman in these phrases. >All the feminists I know >are soft-spoken, patient and articulate. I was fortunate enough to meet a feminist (woman) who had the patience and wisdom to encourage "switching roles" in our relationships. She'd take control of the situation, right down to driving the car, and paying for dinner and drinks. She would encourage me to share my feelings, pain, and joy, even cry in front of her. She would frequently remind me of my own powerlessness in the situation. At first, I was embarrassed, sometimes even afraid to trust her so much. Later, I learned to accept and even enjoy letting her be in control. Since then, I have had female superiors, female peers, and female subordinates. The subordinates have gotten respect for their abilities, and were given better opportunities when their abilities warrented it. Female peers have been promoted faster than I, because their abilities warrented it. Female superiors have not been threatening either. My wife drives when we go out, I take care of the kids when she is at work, and she has nearly complete control of the family finances. Again, this is because her abilities warrant it. Without that first exposure to reversed roles, such trust and dependence on others would have been unlikely. Because of this acceptance and trust, my wife, the women I have professional relationships with, and myself, have gained more than I, or they, could possibly achieved without each other's support. >ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS!