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From: ooblick@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Mikki Barry)
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Nice guys finish last
Message-ID: <3444@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 13-Oct-86 09:27:56 EDT
Article-I.D.: mit-eddi.3444
Posted: Mon Oct 13 09:27:56 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 14-Oct-86 05:53:10 EDT
References: <54@ritcv.UUCP> <305@joevax.UUCP> <1506@burl.ATT.COM>
Reply-To: ooblick@mit-eddie.UUCP (Mikki Barry)
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Organization: MIT, EE/CS Computer Facilities, Cambridge, MA
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Xref: watmath soc.women:320 soc.singles:490

In article <1506@burl.ATT.COM> rcj@burl.UUCP (Curtis Jackson) writes:

>OK, time to step in with the old "before and after" story.  Really until
>about two years ago or so, I was what Laura Creighton likes to call a
>puppy dog.  I was the epitome of the nice guy.  All the girls liked me.
>They liked talking to me, they liked doing some other things as well.
>
>They never stayed for very long.

One of the interesting things to point out here is that I truly believe
that people look for SO's who are at least as strong as they are.  It is
a "change of pace" to have a "puppy dog" around for awhile, but it gets
quite old after awhile to have someone you cannot lean on, someone you
may or may not be able to depend on, someone whining at your door or your
heels, whimpering at you, etc. etc.  Yes, I have gone out with some of
these puppy dogs, and it gets far too tiring to take care of yourself
and take care of the puppy.  Especially those trips to the vet...:-)


>Then, two of them, both of whom I really respect, and at two times
>three years apart, told me that they loved me but I wasn't a real person.
>They felt that I was living my life for them, and they didn't like that.
>They wanted the person they met (when I was being as dashing as I knew
>how and all that courtship stuff that really shouldn't die; just mellow
>a little).  They wanted someone who was nice but who didn't always put them
>before himself.  They wanted a real person!  How dare they!?  ;-)

I think that the old maxim "you must learn to love yourself before you
anyone else will love you" is quite true.  How can one who thinks nothing
of him/herself really love, or be loved by others?  I know that I get
REAL tired of listening to people downplay themselves, especially when
most of the time it's simply to get attention, and/or dig for compliments.
And if try to tell them different, and they aren't really a dweeb, they
don't believe you, so what's the use?    

>So, I decided that I was basically a nice guy and I didn't want to change
>that, but that "it's a short enough ride as it is" and I should be living
>for me and *sharing* that with someone else.  I went into seclusion for
>about eight months after my last SO left and got my shit together by myself.

The really sad part about this is that while Curtis got his shit together
(which takes a certain amount of strength, resolve and guts), there are
many more puppies that won't even take the responsibility for being
able to change their lives by themselves.  It is far easier for them
to believe they can't, than to think maybe they can and attempt this
seemingly impossible feat.  So they withdraw into themselves and look
for sympathy from those who have been trying to tell them they can
change.  I have known MANY men like this, and they would rather feel sorry
for themselves and attempt to make others feel sorry for/with them than
attempt to feel good about themselves.

>I then tentatively stepped back into the dating world.  Well, as Gomer Pyle
>would say, "Surprise, Surprise!"  I have several lady friends, I have a
>great time with them all, I think they have a good time with me, and most
>of all I feel good!  I had no idea all the stuff I'd been repressing to
>be so nice to ladies at the expense of my own self!  I feel so at ease now;
>I like *me* for what I am, and the part of me that can be good for someone
>else is just a part of me I'm glad of now, no longer my raison d'etre.

And it isn't just *MEN* that go through this syndrome.  In the "stone ages"
of my life, I was a doormat too. I was also intensely unhappy with my life,
depressed most of the time, couldnt' find a boyfriend, etc.  So I also
went into a kind of seclusion (went to school in England with a new group
of people who didn't know I was a wimp, and I could experiment with non-
wimpdom without prejudice) and upon my return to "uncivilization", the
change was dramatic.  I found *MEN*, a better job, etc.  I am now quite
happy with my life (ta da!) and owe it all to the concept of "stand up
for yourself".  

>To answer your original question, I think that a lot of women these days
>are so fed up with the Alan Alda syndrome, and so tired of looking for
>men who aren't either total assholes (really bad) or already married to
>their upwardly mobile 80's careers to the exclusion of all else; especially
>to the exclusion of being real with themselves about who they really are.
>So they stick with the guys who, as someone I know said about someone else
>today, "sometimes have the sensitivity of a small soap dish."  They stick
>with them because these guys are real people (not puppy dogs) and they
>are not complete assholes.  A lot of these women could do a lot better, but
>it seems that (just like a lot of men) they give up the search because it
>can be a long and painful one.  Better the slight pain you know than the
>unknown pain, and all that stuff.

Unfortunately true.  But many people get offended when you tell them they
can change some of the parts of their lives that they are unhappy with.
There are plenty of "nice guys" in the world, and plenty of "real men".
But don't let anyone tell you you can't have a combination of both!

Mikki Barry