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From: eric@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Eric Fielding)
Newsgroups: soc.singles,soc.women
Subject: Re: internal conflicts wrt sexual stimuli and so on
Message-ID: <1045@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU>
Date: Thu, 18-Sep-86 11:58:14 EDT
Article-I.D.: batcompu.1045
Posted: Thu Sep 18 11:58:14 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 23-Sep-86 02:09:19 EDT
References: <911@gilbbs.UUCP> <1142@oliveb.UUCP>
Reply-To: eric@batcomputer.UUCP (Eric Fielding)
Organization: Theory Center, Cornell University, Ithaca NY
Lines: 128
Xref: linus soc.singles:53 soc.women:21
Summary: sorry, long posting

In article <1142@oliveb.UUCP> prs@oliven.UUCP (Philip Stephens) writes:
>In article <911@gilbbs.UUCP> mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Thomas J Keller) writes:
>
>{about a painfully familiar situation}
>
>My situation isn't too different at the moment, so I look forward to some
>wiser folk replying to you (gently, I hope).  Meanwhile, a few interim
>suggestions...
>
I have also spent extended time periods without a sexual partner, up to 
three years (and unfortunately find myself suddenly back in that situation).

I tend to drink a lot more alcohol (and consume other things that I won't
mention in public in case there are narcs reading :-) to make it easier to
go home to sleep alone.  I don't recommend this, but it works.

>>This situation is complicated by several things, my being overweight, not 
>>being into dancing or partying, etc., and becoming extremely nervous when
>>involved in social situations.
>
>Try to find a program in your area specificly designed to help deal with
>shyness.  Some community colleges etc have courses on this or related topics.
>Even that may be hard for you to consider, but please do.
>
There have been several discussions lately on net.women about how it is 
much tougher for shy "passive" men than for "aggressive" women to meet
MOTAS in our society. I can't boast too much success myself.  Luckily, a
few women have found me attractive enough to approach me.

>>   I find myself performing behaviours which I loath, and which distress me.
>{details deleted}
>Part of what you describe is quite normal, and nothing to be ashamed of, *if*
>it is not so obvious as to offend.  Er, at least I hope so, since I do it.
>...
>>	It is not that I don't respect them as people. I am senstive to
>>the fact that such staring degrades not only them, but me.  I am deeply 
>>ashamed of my behaviours in this regard.
>
>Degrades?  Not as serious as you believe.  Not that I think it perfectly
>healthy, especially if you are well out of your teens... to be compulsive
>about it seems to me a normal phase to go thru, and getting stuck in it
>calls for seeking help (as you are), not shame.
>
I don't worry about watching women (even when I do have a regular sexual
partner, I look, though less), as long as I can keep from drooling on my
shirt or falling off of my bicycle or reaching out to touch someone (may
be (c) AT&T :-).  Seriously, discretion is the key here.  I see no point
in feeling guilty for thinking thoughts that I can't help thinking. It does
make it difficult to work with female colleagues, though.

>>					When I do meet women, I end up in
>>"freidnship only" mode, which is fine, as far as it goes.  I enjoy haveing
>>female freidns (I enjoy havgin freinds).  Not one of them owes me a damned
>>thing, romantically.  
>
>In my limited experience, friends are often better for me than most of my
>sexual partners have been.  Learn how to be a good friend, and you will
>learn the more important points of how to be a good lover (if I'm on the
>right track here, I could use some further pointers myself.)
>
Several friends of mine have turned into lovers of mine.  It is easier to
get to know someone on a social level before getting involved on a 
intimate level.  It's also much more fun to have sex with someone that you
already know you like.
>>			Yet, I have this terrible need (yes, I need romance 
>>every bit as much, perhaps even more than I need sex).  I am lost, frustrated
>>and disgusted (with myself).
>
>The need for romance, as confused with and only partially distinguished from
>the need for sex, is probably the key point here.  I feel it too.  It is the
>feeling that "I'm not OK if I don't have a lover", the feeling that one must
>prove acceptability by being accepted.  People do *LOTS* worse things than
>stare when driven by that desperate need to prove that they are an OK man or
>woman.  Including date-rape and worse.  And milder things, like bedding and
>even marrying someone they don't even like.  From what you've said, you can be
>proud of what you haven't done to physically degrade yourself and others.
>Not to belittle your anguish, only defuse it a little.
>
Everyone needs affection, which may or may not include sex.  Tom (>>) 
mentioned that he had a "SO" with whom he had a non-sexual relationship. I
have had a little experience with this also, and I found that one woman
was perfectly happy to have me hug her and even kiss her even though she
definitely ruled out any sexual activity.  This can be quite satisfying when
one needs affection more than sex.  In most countries it is expected for men
to hug and kiss women (and vice-versa) as part of every-day greetings. We
Americans are missing out on this--I guess this may be due to the Puritan
traditions.

>>   I am opening myself up for a lot of shit around here by posting this
>>article, and I am willing to take the shit.  I am hoping that someone out
>>there can offer me some ideas on how to rectify my situation.
>
>Well, there have been some humane and helpful responses to others with
>serious questions, so I look forward to this discussion also.  Thanks
>for starting it.
>
I hope that my ex-lover does not get insulted by this. It's too bad that there
is not a "net.men" for us to discuss things like this which are not necessarily
of interest to women.

>>tom keller					"She's alive, ALIVE!"
>
>..The last two relationships, well,
>have you heard of aversion training?  (Both women were and are nice
>people; I don't blame it *all* on them, but I now associate each of
>them with pain).  
>
>But I've been "resting up and healing" from the most recent one for 
>nearly a year; I don't know if I need more patience or less!  I don't 
>seem all that shy, but where it really counts, I need help too.  Some 
>answers will probably apply to Tom, some to me, some to both.  And 
>I'll try not to take offense at well intentioned criticism.
>
>						- Phil

I am sorry to hear that you are still unhappy about your previous relationships,
I am learning to recover faster each time.
I have certainly found that it helps to be comfortable with oneself (have
one's head together, in hippy jargon) before embarking on new relationships.
I don't think that this involves any particular "healing" time.

I am not sure that I have made any useful suggestions, but it is always good
to know that one is not alone in feeling alone.

					++Eric Fielding
DARPA Internet:

eric@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu    (or) fielding@geology.tn.cornell.edu