Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!caip!elbereth!rutgers!sri-spam!sri-unix!hplabs!pyramid!voder!kontron!cramer
From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.singles
Subject: Re: My problems with rape (or why my views are so different from
Message-ID: <1109@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 3-Oct-86 14:23:55 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.1109
Posted: Fri Oct  3 14:23:55 1986
Date-Received: Wed, 8-Oct-86 06:04:03 EDT
References: <1904@mtgzy.UUCP> <8608050927.AA09486@cory.Berkeley.EDU>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Mt. View, CA
Lines: 47
Xref: watmath soc.women:221 soc.singles:324

> In article <1086@kontron.UUCP> cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >> In article <169@omssw1.UUCP> hays@omssw1.UUCP (Kirk Hays) writes:
> >> >Yes.  Here's a dogmatic idea:
> >> >	Societies that require individuals to be responsible for their
> >> >	own defense have less violence and less crime than societies
> >> >	(like ours) that strip the individual of these abilities.
> >> This suggestion would be more plausible if the United States had
> >> much lower rates of crime and violence than the other western countries,
> >> all of which expect the authorities,  rather than the individual,
> >> to be responsible for defence and control.  In fact, its rates are
> >> by far higher than those in (to take the example where I happen to
> >> live) Canada, where it would be virtually unthinkable for a homeowner
> >> to have a handgun.
> >Groan!  For the hundredth time, "You are comparing apples & oranges
> >when you compare the U.S. and Canada, or the U.S. and any European
> >country."  There are substantial differences in ethnic makeup, legal
> >systems (Canada actually sends violent criminals to jail, for example),
> >weather, and population densities.
>     You are - as you so vehemently assert - a free individual. You don't
> *have* to spend your life posting second-hand non sequiturs courtesy of the
> N.R.A.. Try some independent rational thought for once. You list some factors
> which could conceivably affect the crime rates in different countries. They
> vary not only from country to country but (for example) from state to state
> within the U.S.. If they really are significant you ought to be able to 
> demonstrate this simply by comparing U.S. states. If they explain the 
> difference in murder rates between the U.S. and civilised countries, you
> ought to be able to show this statistically (a crude method would be to
> try and pair U.S. states and foreign countries with similar ethnicity/legal
> system/weather/pop. density; best would be a proper factor analysis). 
>    On the other hand, if you just want to use irrelevancies to prevent 
> rational debate, you're doing just fine. 
>  
>                                 ihnp4!oddjob!apak

There is considerable argument about the relative importance of the
different factors -- the lack of controllable experimental subjects is
the major reason.  I should point out, however, that there are many states
in the U.S. that have dramatically lower murder rates than Canada, with
much higher availability of firearms.  (South Dakota, for example, last
time I looked up murder rates, had .6 murders/100,000 -- as opposed to
Canada, 6.1/100,000.)

I notice that the forces for gun control NEVER show the sort of figures
you ask for -- maybe they've tried to build such statistics and find the
results...unimpressive?

Clayton E. Cramer