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From: mcb@styx.UUCP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.women
Subject: Re: who drives the bus nonissue?
Message-ID: <20868@styx.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 17-Sep-86 21:24:36 EDT
Article-I.D.: styx.20868
Posted: Wed Sep 17 21:24:36 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 27-Sep-86 17:01:41 EDT
References: <633@mit-vax.UUCP> <3096@columbia.UUCP> <3239@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU> <1163@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU>
Reply-To: mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch)
Distribution: net
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, Livermore CA
Lines: 45
Xref: watmath soc.culture.jewish:3 soc.women:2

In <1163@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU> martillo@trillian.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) writes:
> . . .
> >If they don't want to accept the state's services as is, without
> >attempting to force them to conform to an antiquated, sexist, and illegal
> >moral code, let them pay for it themselves.
> 
> Once again Mikki Barry shows her essential social fascism.  By calling
> Jewish law antiquated, she tries to convince that it should be
> chucked.  By calling it illegal she sanctions compulsory measures
> against Jewish law.  I suppose next she will want to move all those
> who obey Jewish law to concentration camps to isolate them in their
> illegal and antiquated practices from the rest of the public.

With this posting Mr. Martillo has moved from a trenchant and
irrepressible observer of Jewish culture and affairs to a vicious, ad
hominem waver of the bloody shirt. I find his concentration camp
analogy offensive and believe that he owes Ms. Barry -- and more
importantly, the rest of us on the net -- an apology. 

But let's look at the substance of Ms. Barry's remarks:

Antiquated -- Indeed. Hasidic practice is quite antiquated, and seems
to have lost the train of progressive social thought that has
developed in both the Jewish mainstream and that of other cultures,
particularly with respect to gender roles, conduct of the home and
school, permitted literature and cultural activities, etc.

Sexist -- (If I have to argue *this* in detail, I don't know why I
bother to write for this audience.) Hasidism is firmly based on sexism
and archaic gender roles. That is one of the main reasons I find it
and other religious-extremist sects morally insupportable, ranging
from fundamentalist Islam to fundamentalist Christian to
ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Sexism is stupid and wrong, no matter *why*
you practice it. Nevertheless, we tolerate it in the free exercise of
religion, for better or worse. 

Illegal -- Yup. If the Hasidim were not a religious group, but a
social club or even a non-religious voluntary community, their
practice of institutionalized sexism in employment, job assignment,
and opportunity would leave them quite vulnerable to a suit for sex
discrimination. 

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb