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From: vg55611@ihuxk.UUCP (gopal)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: God and Occam (was Re: the cosmological argument)
Message-ID: <1192@ihuxk.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 28-Sep-86 21:17:44 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihuxk.1192
Posted: Sun Sep 28 21:17:44 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 2-Oct-86 19:46:41 EDT
References: <496@tekfdi.UUCP> <165@grc97.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL
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> Let me attempt to make an analogy. In the set of all integers, each integer
> certainly must have a predecessor. If you want to think about the set of
> 
> Similarly, any given event may be discussed in terms of those which
> preceded it, 'causing' it if you will. Any given chain of events is
> 
> > One could consider that something without a cause is outside of what (from
> > everything we can tell) is natural. In other words, "supernatural."
> 
> I'm always amused by people who must resort to using the term
> 'supernatural'. As usually defined by people, this word means, "an event
> occuring which is outside of the natural order of things." Unfortunately,
> such can never exist or occur. I must digress for a moment and present my
> definition for the term 'universe'. Universe is the sum total of all
> 
> > God, whether the Judeo-Christian God or most other gods, is, almost by
> > definition, supernatural. In short, a God without a cause is consistent.
> 
> Sure. And once I have shown that 1 = 0 I can consistently prove anything else
> I like too. An assumption based on a contradiction is useless.

It always seemed to me, whether I was debating the question in my own mind
or with someone else, that any reasons put forward to prove the existence
of a god or anything supernatural could be applied to the existence of the
universe itself - the above discussions seem like a perfect example of this.
If god, being uncaused, is supernatural, why not just believe that the
universe itself is supernatural ?

Without going into whether there is such a thing as supernatural or not,
I think we still don't need to invent god. Or are we so limited in our
imaginations that we have to have an almost "person-like" being to explain
it all ? Even if I believe that there must be something supernatural, I'd
just rather believe the universe itself is (I really don't have any problems
believing that the darn thing just simply always always existed, in one
form or another !).

I have had many a discussion on this subject (the existence of god) as well
as on the subject of WHICH god (different religions) with people of at least
three religions and the reasons and logic they put forward to justify the
existence of god itself are very close in nature to the reasons and logic
they put forward in defense of their own god. Namely, they are not reasons
or logic at all but simply beliefs that they are just not comfortable
parting with. I got the feeling that without these beliefs, their entire
life would all of a sudden be meaningless and they would almost be lost (in
terms of purpose and knowing right from wrong). Since I did not want this
to happen to anyone, I never took any discussions too far. Besides, I
really have no problems at all with anyone believing in god or any religion
as long as they don't try to preach to me without being willing to listen
to my view of it .....

Apologize if I got too far off tangent.

Venu P. Gopal

> -- 
> email:	...ihnp4!grc97!hurst		David Hurst, KSC
> phone:	(312) 640-2044			Gould Research Center
> flames:	/dev/null
> #include <std.disclaimer>
> 
> 		All hail Discordia! Kallisti!

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