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From: throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Now wait a minute... (was Re: Who can know?)
Message-ID: <595@dg_rtp.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 24-Sep-86 13:08:02 EDT
Article-I.D.: dg_rtp.595
Posted: Wed Sep 24 13:08:02 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 25-Sep-86 06:02:06 EDT
References: <15222@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <988@hoptoad.uucp>
Lines: 36
Xref: linus talk.religion.misc:200 talk.origins:93
Summary: So I waited a minute.  But however long I wait, nobody can know.

> mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers)
>> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop)

>> [no observer] can ever know, because the
>> information *ISN'T* *THERE* *TO* *BE* *KNOWN*.

> If you
> do not restrict the observer in ways similar to how we are restricted, then
> even quantum physical fundamentals such as the probabilistic motions of 
> particles that gives rise to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle go away,
> as it would, in fact, be possible for an observer to apprehend both the 
> position and the velocity of the particle at the same instant in time.

And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.  Observations have
shown particles *don't* *have* definite position and momentum
simultaneously.  And my observations show that my grandmother doesn't
have wheels.  If you wish to postulate that there *can* exist observers
not limited by quantum uncertainty, fine.  And I can postulate that my
grandmother has wheels.  With equal validity.

I agree that "if our observations are wrong, the theory built from those
observations might be wrong".  But... so what?  The point is we are not
talking about our inability to observe something.  We are talking about
our *ability* to observe the *lack* of something.  If particles have
definite position and momentum but we just can't see it, they wouldn't
form interference patterns.  If local hidden varibles exist then the
"Aspect" experiments wouldn't come out the way they do.  And so on.

--
My math requires, when mesons pair,
A particle that isn't there.
It isn't there again today.
Please, Fermi, make it go away!
                                --- Karen Anderson
-- 
Wayne Throop      <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw