Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!husc6!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!orca!tekecs!mikes From: mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc Subject: Praying to the Father; thoughts on the Holy Spirit & the Trinity Message-ID: <7653@tekecs.UUCP> Date: Thu, 18-Sep-86 16:57:39 EDT Article-I.D.: tekecs.7653 Posted: Thu Sep 18 16:57:39 1986 Date-Received: Tue, 23-Sep-86 00:49:28 EDT References: <7568@tekecs.UUCP> <1503@mtx5a.UUCP> <7616@tekecs.UUCP> <1539@mtx5a.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR Lines: 67 Xref: linus net.religion.christian:4679 talk.religion.misc:147 [Given the unstable nature of net.reality these days, I've cross-posted to talk.religion.misc too. Apologies to all Easily Offended Followers of the Towel of Turneep, Et Al. :-)] > [On Prayer and Saints] >> See John 16:23-27, esp. v.23 (along the the lines of 'if you ask the Father >> for anything he will give it to you in my name' (Jesus speaking)), and also >> the text of the Lords Prayer, which I take to be a template for our prayers. > > Obviously one point of difference, since I would say an example rather than a > template. I think we are saying the same thing. It is not a limiting thing, but is the basic form you ought to observe. What you say in a specific prayer depends on a lot of other things. As an example/template though, this is the way to go with prayer. >[...] Now, I stand open to correction on these points, and welcome it, but >it also seems to me that the ``Our Father'' is also a short and simple prayer, > free of grandeloquence, without long litanies, and that Jesus was talking about > people who make a big display of their prayers when he gave us this prayer. > (I'm also open to correction on this point; I'm at work and have not got a > NT handy) I don't know the text of the "Our Father" prayer (not the same as what Protestants call The Lord's Prayer, is it?), but I believe the passage you are talking about is in Mark (6:6 I think). Interestingly enough, this is another place where he explicitly talks about praying to the Father ("when you pray to your Father who is in secret, pray also in secret" or something like that, from the NAS translation and my memory :-). >> Jesus explicitly says to pray to God the Father. He (Jesus) never said that we >> should pray *to* him, only to the Father in his name. The Holy Spirit is >> supposed to be a companion and a comforter, but not one to whom one prays. > > I understand your point on a rational level; on the other hand if Creator, > Redeemer, and Spirit are one and coequal, it seems an overnice point that > we may/should pray to God as Father but not as Holy Spirit, especially since > Jesus emphasized His oneness with the Father. Now this is an interesting point. The idea and doctrine of the Trinity is found nowhere in the Bible. I am not sure, but I believe it evolved from one of the Bishop's Councils 'round about 300-500 A.D.. I also think that the idea of the Trinity that some people accept (one God, one being, three different manifestations) is mistaken. The verses where Jesus talks about himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit make it clear (to me) that we have here three separate beings (call them one God if you wish; I think at this level it is little more than word play) who jointly participate as God, joined in purpose but with different emphases. I know this is almost heresy for many Christians (my mother, for example), and yet I believe the N.T. bears me out. Certainly the references to the nature of God in the Gospel of John, during the stoning of Stephen, during John's Apocalyptic revelation, and in Jesus' own speech are open to interpretation at the very least. Given that I believe that God the Father is a separate being from Jesus (the Son) and the Holy Spirit (the Comforter), it is not difficult to see why I believe that Jesus is being quite specific in his statements about praying to the Father ass opposed to anyone else. > from Mole End Mark Terribile -- Mike Sellers UUCP: {...your spinal column here...}!tektronix!tekecs!mikes INNING: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 TOTAL IDEALISTS 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 REALISTS 1 1 0 4 3 1 2 0 2 0