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From: pmk@prometheus.UUCP (Paul M Koloc)
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Holy Spirit, Trinity, angels and cosmology: ANSWER PART 2
Message-ID: <261@prometheus.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 25-Sep-86 05:27:38 EDT
Article-I.D.: promethe.261
Posted: Thu Sep 25 05:27:38 1986
Date-Received: Mon, 29-Sep-86 00:20:15 EDT
References: <7568@tekecs.UUCP> <1503@mtx5a.UUCP> <7616@tekecs.UUCP> <257@prometheus.UUCP> <1272@utastro.UUCP>
Sender: pmk@prometheus.UUCP
Reply-To: pmk@prometheus.UUCP (Super User)
Distribution: net
Organization: Prometheus II, Ltd., College Park, MD 20740-0222
Lines: 140
Keywords: Trinity, Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Substance
Xref: linus net.religion.christian:4723 talk.religion.misc:244

>> ... 
In article <1272@utastro.UUCP> padraig@utastro.UUCP (Padraig Houlahan) writes:
>The criticism is still valid since the sciences physics and cosmology - 
>in spite of your contrived hypotheses - do not recognize the existence of 
>angels and souls, leaving this as an appropriate forum.
>
>In article <257@prometheus.UUCP>, pmk@prometheus.UUCP (Paul M Koloc) writes:
>> Once the cosmology was "invented", however, it was interesting to look 
>> around for "strange things" to put in these strange places. 

Let's look at the "physical problem" and assume that the one
space of "Divine substance" (no volume) is embedded in our grainy
three space physical world.  How do you find it?  How do you cut
it???  How do you cut an infinitely dense infinitesimal width with 
a "grainy" cut line.   One space could simply exist between the grains
without any measure (physical contact). 

>   - "can" and "might" are not the same. Even if we were to go off the
>     deep end and go along with you, why SHOULD an "entity" exist there?

If this substance did exist there at all, it must exist there at
all times because of its nature.  If it never existed there then
it never existed and doesn't exist now, and there was no juice to
generate the substance of two and then three dimensional space,
and we don't exist.  Compared to the density of one space, we're 
just a fleeting grainy few frames on a television boob tube, anyway.   

>     But since a line can be partitioned ad infinitum, your "logic" now
>     allows for an infinite number of "entities".

Yes, a "line" can, in two and three space, but that is not the case in 
one space.  

>   - Even if you don't like the previous objection you are not off the
>     hook. There are an infinite number of n-spaces that can fit into
>     an m-space if m > n (ignoring partions for the present). This still
>     permits an infinite number of your infinite density entities to
>     exist.

Well in mathematical space you can believe (construct) almost anything, 
assume infinite information densities, continuity point wise, ..etc.  
But in the REAL physical world there isn't an infinite amount of
information, so, it must be that our space is somehow nested
in one dimension rather than vice versa.    

>To some extent I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I am assuming
>that you understand that lines are 1-dim objects, points have zero dim. etc.
>in spite of the fact that there is evidence that you are confused even at this
>level. If this is the case I won't press the edge/gradient/partition
>objections above.
>
Well that's very kind, and who knows maybe I'm getting "old timers
disease".       :-)

>> Then too we can estimate the "time" characteristics of this substance.  
>> This is "interpolation" from the time characteristics of ordinary matter,
>> but it seems not at all unreasonable.  That is that since the matter has
>> "infinite density" time passes at a "zero" rate.  
>
>How did you "interpolate" this result from "time characteristics of ordinary
>matter"? What are the "time characteristics of ordinary matter"? 

The general science that is currently taught is sloppy and
doesn't bother to consider such a dimension as time and "see"
a particles "symmetry" in space and time.  It's really nifty, and
the meaning of things like charge and gravity fall out very
nicely.  But that's another newsgroup.   

The only aspects we need are the concept that a typical particle 
has a distribution in time as well as space, and the "width" of
the time distribution can be calculated from the Heisenberg's
relation of uncertainy, where the energy is related to the mass
of the neutron.  The inverse of the time width is the "number" of
times or frequency it is recreated each second.  

Now this can vary even in our physical universe because it takes
time to "recalculate" the particle's next created location and
that time depends on the total number of grains that have to be
"processed" on each recreation.  The numbers go up when the
particle drops into a denser and denser gravity field or is being
accelerated close to the speed of light.  The latter is the result
of the particle intercepting nearly as many grains as it can
"recalculate" during its flight through the background fields.  
Consequently, it takes a longer time to obtain information that the
accelerating particle should be moving "faster".  At the speed of 
light it can't go faster because it can't make another recalculation!
The "relativistic mass" is related to the number of grains it interacts 
with as it flies through the background fields at nearly the
speed of light. 

Anyway that is an interesting aside, because what is important is
that time of existence "real present time" expands into the future
and the past as the "energy density goes up".  The frequency or
"particle framing rate" slows down, correspondingly. 

The second important thing that takes place during acceleration
is contraction into a more "planar" shape normal to the direction
of acceleration.  Now to become infinitely "thin" the energy
expended would have to be infinite.   That's not necessary because 
all that is required is that the object become "thin enough" to 
"slip between the grains" and it will then "quantum mechanically"
disappear into "hypermatter and two dimensional space".   

That means the energy density of hyper matter is very large, and
angels must be very "strong"; my guess is that they would be
something up to the level of a "freshly born quasar" in
equivalent punch.   The possibility of an angel or the Holy 
Spirit "withdrawing" his physical body (Jesus) into 2 space
is just as likely as the extrusion of a physical body into three
space from the conversion of hyper energy  to matter.  Of course,
the latter causes a big pop from the air displacement as
witnessed by the apostles when Jesus appeared "though the doors 
were shut".   I think they described it as a "big wind". 

Now if a substance greatly increases its density from 3 to 2
dimensions then it's consistent that it would increase if hypermatter
were supercompressed into a line in two space.  That means:
When it comes to GOD,  .. .oops I mean Divine Matter..   forget
it, AWESOME ..  just doesn't even start to define it. 

>>...OR as I explained else
>> where, it means that the "real present time" expands in width infinitely 
>> into both the future and the past. 
>
>Really? Can you give us an example of "artificial present time"? Or of time
>that doesn't "expand in width"?

Cute!  I mean to say not a "modeled result" but a real actual occurring
sort of thing.  

>As a result of your "cosmology" or that which astronomers and physicists
>dabble in?

I think you want to know if Carl Sagan approves?  I am sure he might
since he spouts hypotheses that are just as colorful and even more
controversial.  On his recent NOVA appearances he put forth the concept
of "black holes", which haven't exactly made themselves very evident,
may in fact, be "shrinking to nothingness" or so small that they slip
out of our universe.  He didn't say where, but then he might have - -
I wasn't paying too much attention. (yawn) 

        Paul was just glad that He only threw a lightning bolt!

+---------------------------------------------------------+--------+
| Paul M. Koloc, President: (301) 445-1075                | FUSION |
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