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From: nazgul@apollo.uucp (Kee Hinckley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Net Dunce Award, Proudly Claimed by - Mike Huybensz!!
Message-ID: <3053d4b6.46@apollo.uucp>
Date: Thu, 25-Sep-86 20:41:49 EDT
Article-I.D.: apollo.3053d4b6.46
Posted: Thu Sep 25 20:41:49 1986
Date-Received: Mon, 29-Sep-86 02:41:10 EDT
References: <5483@decwrl.DEC.COM>
Reply-To: nazgul@apollo.UUCP (Kee Hinckley)
Organization: Apollo Computer, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 60

In article <5483@decwrl.DEC.COM> arndt@lymph.dec.com.UUCP writes:
...
> What about the 'evidence' given by Mark and Matthew?  Greenleaf goes on to
> say (about their entire books), "In the absense of circumstances which generate
> suspicion, every witness is to be presumed credible, until the contrary is 
                   ^^^^^^^
...
> Also, the Bible is not ONE witness, but the record of MANY!!  How empty the
                                              ^^^^^^
> statement, "But who else?".  What they are really saying is, "Produce someone
> who doesn't believe it happened to say it did."  Since there are not eye
> witness accounts surviving that say it didn't happen - yea I know, the naughty
> Christians burned them all with their texts!
...
> Ken Arndt

Having a witness present is VERY different than having a RECORD of witnesses
present.  Look how much even tape recordings are challenged in court.  It
seems highly unlikely that a 2000 year old record of what someone supposedly
said (and a record that is known to have major errors and modifications, 
someone recently mentioned the "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live in
thy village" --> "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" example) would
stand a chance in court.

As for the question of counter witnesses, take the Jewish records.  Do they
record a resurrection?  Or how about the Bible itself (sorry I don't
remember the passage, I only bought one in self-defense a few days ago and
it's at home) when it mentions that the soldiers who guarded the tomb were
given money and told that they could say they had been bribed to leave. It
even says that this story was widely spread.

Asking for counter evidence is a bit silly.  Those who did not see evidence
of the resurrection A) had no reason to say otherwise (not anticipating
the importance of such a statement in the future) and B) like most other
people of the era probably could not write (did the Apostles actually
write their stories, or were they handed down over time?) and C) even
if they could have, the chances of such documents surviving 2000 years
of religious persecution seems rather slim.

Enough.  I am not a member of HASA, and I have no problem with faith.  I
just have trouble dealing with attempts to apply faulty logic as a 
support of faith.  It's a foot in the door.  Sooner or later someone
will get the idea that the story taught by the bible is not only supportable
in court, but it SHOULD be supported in court.  The next thing you know
they'll be arguing that it should be taught in schools next to the science
courses.  And that's not funny.

Religion is like pornography.  It's your right, just don't force it on anyone.

                                                        -kee

--

            ...{mit-eddie,yale,uw-beaver,decvax!wanginst}!apollo!nazgul
               Apollo Computer, Chelmsford MA.  (617) 256-6600 x7587
                   or 499B Boston Rd, Groton MA. (617) 448-2863

I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate
everyone else's.