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From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Sexual Attitudes (questions about Stuart Gathmans article)
Message-ID: <1161@hoptoad.uucp>
Date: Mon, 29-Sep-86 15:23:07 EDT
Article-I.D.: hoptoad.1161
Posted: Mon Sep 29 15:23:07 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 30-Sep-86 21:42:28 EDT
References: <54@houligan.UUCP> <1092@hoptoad.uucp> <2208@garfield.UUCP>
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: Centram Systems, Berkeley
Lines: 64

In article <2208@garfield.UUCP> johnf@garfield.UUCP (John Field) writes:

>I'd really like to know where you get your information. The attitude of
>Catholicism is NOT that sex is dirty; at least, *I* was never taught that, nor
>were my parents, nor were *their* parents (this in a place that was up until
>recently somewhat dogmatic in its observance of church laws, be they Catholic
>or Protestant). We were always taught that sex was a wonderful, precious
>thing. God made it enjoyable, not Satan. We are simply taught that sex is
>wrong only outside of marriage, because it was meant to 1) bond a man and a
>woman together in body as the marriage binds them in spirit and 2) to bring
>itty-bitty bipeds into the world that God put here for us. In the Old
>Testament, God said "Go forth and multiply"; in the New Testament, God (the
>Son) says that in marriage, a man will cleave unto his wife (and vice versa),
>and they become ONE (He doesn't mean only spiritually, but PHYSICALLY, too; God
>is saying, OK guys, party time...). As a matter of fact, the Church believes
>that inside a marriage having sex FOR IT'S PLEASURES' SAKE is ok, wonderful,
>fine. It's just that the door must be left open to procreation: children are
>supposed to be a blessing, not a curse.

That's right, every siongle time, the door must be left open to procreation.
Sex for its own sake is evil.  I recall recent papal proclamations that sex
for pleasure is evil; and of course we all know that we are supposed to
imitate Jesus, and that Jesus was celibate.  The professional mimics are
all celibate in your church.

John, I too was raised in a liberal catholic family.  I have been distressed
in recent years, speaking to members of conservative Catholic churches and
people who went to conservative Catholic schools, that this does not at all
represent the Catholic hierarchy in general.  I was taught tolerance; many
other Catholics have been taught intolerance.  You were taught (by your
family only, I note) that sex was good; most of the rest of us were taught
that it is evil except as a way of making more Catholics.

I sugest you ask a conservative priest about the pleasure of sex in
marriage, and about the Holy Father's attitude toward it.

I find it hard to imagine that you are unaware of the Christian opposition
to every manifestation of sexual freedom: erotic literaure, birth control,
abortion, equal rights for gays, feminism.  Do you deny these things?

If you are unaware of the historical Christian attitude toward sex, I would
recommend the book "The History of Sex" by Reay Tannahill.

>Now where in the New Testament does Jesus say one must castrate oneself?
>Could you at least give me a few chapters and verses to work with?

Try Matthew, 19:12.  I have said this already, and still a number of people
have said "He was just speaking in parables", so let me repeat: Castration
was a common religious practice at the time, particularly in the popular
cult of Cybele.  If the statement was meant to be metaphorical, Christ would
have said so, becuase it was bound to be interpreted literally.

In the same vein as this quotation, we have St. Paul's "It is better to
marry than to burn".  Sex is seen as at best the lesser of two evils.

>And as for the watching of naked bodies and the like, Jesus Himself said that
>nothing that goes into a man from the outside can make him unclean; only that
>which is in his heart can do so.

Hmm?  I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
-- 
Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
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hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)