Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!nike!sri-spam!sri-unix!hplabs!pyramid!isieng!kiki From: kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: Christian logic (or lack) was Re: one more time Message-ID: <310@isieng.UUCP> Date: Mon, 29-Sep-86 13:13:37 EDT Article-I.D.: isieng.310 Posted: Mon Sep 29 13:13:37 1986 Date-Received: Thu, 2-Oct-86 20:22:47 EDT References: <2754@pogo.UUCP> Reply-To: kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) Distribution: na Organization: Integrated Solutions, San Jose, CA Lines: 106 In article <2754@pogo.UUCP> daveb@pogo.UUCP (Dave Butler) writes: >Recently Kiki Herbst replied to one of my articles (her msg = ><302@isieng.UUCP>). One of the things she said had a ring of truth and some >things were just plain erroneous. The good thing she said was : > >>Thank God that we have been given minds so that we can rationally evaluate >>what truth and fact is. Just because a large number of people believe >>something or have "tons of faith" doesn't make something true.... > >>Jesus was probably the most remembered character in human history. More >>books have been written, more songs sung, more paintings painted, more great >>drama written than any other figure in the past. > >Oh wow! Deja Vu! Well Kiki, I hate to burst your bubble, but the most widely >remembered and enshrined person in history is Siddartha (also called Buddha). >There are more artistic representations of Siddartha than of any other human >(Hell, even the game _Trivial_Pursuits_ knows that). Also, Buddha lived over >a thousand years before Jesus was born. That's an additional thousand years >to be forgotten, but his fame just keeps on growing. I don't know where you come up with your info on Siddartha (I don't know if Trivial Pursuit is a real good source of proof :-)). I know the number one selling book of all times is the Bible. Let's good back for a minute to my good point about minds and rational evaluation. My original point about the number of followers of Christ was that numerous people have made rational choices to receive Christ. But I also said that mere numbers is not a rational reason for making a choice! I kept my original quote in this article that said that even though a large number of people believe something, quantity doesn't make it true, but it probably makes you stop to think about it twice. Siddhartha's large followings, in the same way, should make people think twice. > >By your own logic we will have to declare Buddha as the true GOD. I think >he'd have laughed at this... And so do I. I don't know where you come up with my "own logic" when I was saying the exact opposite of what you are saying. >One must remember though, that according to christian doctrine all who do not >accept Jesus as lord are to burn in hell. That would mean that 98+ percent of >the world's population (past and present) are burning, or are destined to >burn, in hell for no other reason than they didn't even get a chance (through >no fault of their own) to find out who Jesus was. The Christian god >is omniscient, he should have seen that one comming. Wrong again. The Bible says that man who does not "through any fault of their own" find out who Jesus is will be judged on different terms. Romans 3:13 says "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous, but those who live by the law that are declared righteous." Man who does not know Jesus, the Bible says in Romans, will not be judged by whether or not they had the opportunity to hear about Jesus, they will be judged according to how they respond to God in their lives. The Bible says that God has made himself evident in every person's life and has written himself on their hearts and consciences. > When a christian asks me to join his/her religion, he/she usually gives >me 3 reasons : > 1. The bible (which is not verifiably more authentic than other > religious texts from other religions). Have you researched that? > 2. The miracles of Jesus which were witnessed by his followers.(Why > should I accept the word of christian witnesses that I can't verify > (ie: what's their names, where are their statements and where is their > proof aside from the bible) over the word of more numerous witnesses > to another god's miracle). > Which makes more sense? A god with a bunch of arms doing mystic actions or the story of a man. > 3. Jesus loves me (this also is to accepted without proof). He said so. Is that proof? >All of which adds up to pure faith. And then I find christians who believe >that faith in a god without proof is bad (unless its in the chistian god). I >am supposed to find the story of Krishna, where he comes to earth in super- >human form and kills a demon and has it witnessed by 100,000 people, >ridiculous. On the other hand I am supposed to believe the story of Jesus, >where he comes to earth in god/human form, has a debate with a demon and has >his biggest miracle witnessed by a mere 400 people, is very reasonable and >obviously the truth. It is this expectation from christians that I find >ridiculous. Then don't believe it! You have your own mind and can make rational decisions. Believe in Krishna and his supernatural form, if you'd like. Follow the teachings of Siddhartha and reach a state of "nothingness" if that's what you think is right. As a Christian, I don't expect you to believe anything. But *I* know that God exists. My life has been changed and it is the best thing that has ever happened to me. Nothing more than that! You can make your own decision. I don't even know who you are, how could I expect anything of you? But, I am willing to tell anybody about the life that I have found in Jesus. Why cover up something that has such tremendous impact on my life? You can do whatever you want; I've got what I want! > Enjoyed this Immensely, > Dave Butler > Me Too, Kiki Herbst > > Remember: Silly is a state of Mind, Stupid is a way of Life. "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have" 1 Peter 3:15