Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!rutgers!caip!clyde!watmath!watnot!watdcsu!magore From: magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,net.religion.christian Subject: Re: Why believe in religion? Message-ID: <2601@watdcsu.UUCP> Date: Tue, 30-Sep-86 21:05:26 EDT Article-I.D.: watdcsu.2601 Posted: Tue Sep 30 21:05:26 1986 Date-Received: Thu, 2-Oct-86 20:42:35 EDT References: <1136@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU> <1144@cybvax0.UUCP> <1135@mhuxt.UUCP> <2584@watdcsu.UUCP> <1165@cybvax0.UUCP> Reply-To: magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario Lines: 174 Xref: linus talk.religion.misc:338 net.religion.christian:4796 In article <1165@cybvax0.UUCP> mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) writes: him> I wrote: me> him> or the man who thinks the other is deluded for seeing pink elephants? him> Let's ask this third man who sees flying purple people-eaters.... So what gives you the right to ask (or stack) the questions? Can you get in the brain and *know* what another person thinks? You assume too much for your own good (just guess what about, ok?). Look, lets be be clear: (and if I don't answer what your active imagination thinks up, or address *your* pet problem. *Your* job in such a case is to ask - not critisize - untill you know - else if your mind is made up -tell us , ok? - and I say good for you!) I digress: I can say that I could be fooled about what I experiance and what I beleive. Does that make you feel better? You must think to highly of yourself to think otherwise. You don't even TRY to see how open minded we are or what I just ment. You say much about Christians and know *little*. Why should I have to answer for *all* religions and social causes of them. That's YOUR problem! You have to ask us AND them to find out! Your *Hypocrisy* and such like it *was the reason I posted* (re myth). You would rather live in a fantasy land safe with what you think we know! You have to be impartial to judge. -(been on a jury? - think about it). To put patterns together you have to be willing to try new ideas... I have good eveidence that YOU generalize too much for your own good.... I *just* need refer to a few of your articles here. So that's why I overload the word 'fantasy' on you. Perhaps you have much history in thinking what you state -but the burdon of 'assumption' is yours to test - not to state like fact. Look. I don't want you to squrim away from this You go off into never never land and spew forth about your own BIAS and realizations of HOW we think,...just great what an example to follow.! You state: him> The real explanation is simply that god belief is bundled into him> the price of the package of social services peddled as Christian him> religions. -Hey no contest here -YOU said it after all...(-: him> Religion is simply a form of social behavior him> (in the anthropological sense.) -Just 'simply'? -Good no need to think about that anymore! him> It provides certain services which can all be provided by him> secular sources. -SO ? him> Different people can select different services. One may use him> the crutch of belief in a caring god; him> another may use the church as a meeting place for him> meeting marriageable women or business deals; him> and another may seek moral him> instruction to deal with life's conflicts. There's a large him> list of non-supernatural services. -So that explains it *ALL* hmmm? And,... I don't know that??? What do I know hmmmm???? -don't you feel silly???? me> Still I came to believe in God/Christ because I used the me> method of *verification* outlined in the Bible. him> Congratulations. You have fallen prey to circular reasoning. No, I made that a bit more clear. The Bible as a closed system -if you like- may or may not be any more circular than finding 2 + 2 = 4 in a math text (an aside: how many sources do I need to prove this?) The Christian at least thinks that God proves himself to them as a real experiance. Yet YOU want to define Christainity! That's like on a whim, re-defining a history to suite your purpose, and then use this version of history to convict whoever you don't like! Well Sir I am calling you for what you are a Hypocrite! So ok, things are hard to prove at times,.. great! I bet if most of the people in history used your openminded example we would be still arguing about how to dig caves as far as scientific method goes! me> - Nothing any Christian can say (that is words) will convince me> another of the validity of Christianity. God/Christ ultimately does me> the convincing/convicting (re Bible etc) but they have to do the me> looking. I guess you don't know what I ment. Well your a good example as to whom I was talking to as an extreme case. I can't PROVE to you of the experiances in my mind any more than you can PROVE what's in your mind. That's what I ment -as to degree... But here you may ask 'what do you mean by PROVE?' -I say just: *anything* no more no less ok? -Or even more clearly -NOT limited to Christian thought..... him> That is plain and simple a psychotic fantasy, no better him> substantiated by reality than the idea that there is a ^^^^^^^^ -Yours no doubt.... him> homunculus inside your head who controls your brain and him> decides whether you will appear to be convinced of Christianity. him> It's amazing the lengths people will go to fantasize that somebody him> important has taken an interest in them. - Yup and you *KNOW* with a capital *K* hmmm????? Oh if only *I* could do that! (re people -> fantasize, why, what when where---->therefore! for *all*) Well from my point now I could say I can't avoid God. But what do you KNOW I know? I have posted so much that you know me like you know the back of *my* hand (-: ?.... I have had to talk with many Christians to get to know that there is a thread of common experience. Takes time... You would like to toss away a fair bit of experience though --- must be nice..... Mike Huybensz, if I give you an apology as to my tone here will you beleive me? Well here it is. - At this time of day I can't think of a better way to get to your level... My statements stand, though the method here might sting.... To the Christains on the net I am deeply sorry but I hope you will find better ways to speak up. Drifting back to the 'myth' theme....And just plain general ideas.... It is sad the way Galileo died in history. -for want to accept new ideas- ...But we all hold on to many 'myths' -so then have respect for those who do. -to every issue there are more then 2 sides and painfull it is to find out.... Where is the humble man? Why must the humble Chrsitian never speak? -but maybe *I'm* a poor example here... him> Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh him> him> "There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man him> who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable him> myths." him> Bertrand Russell in "Human Society in Ethics and Politics". He said it! it must be true every 'little' word. But now I can read this in a new light! Just a new fancy way to be a biggot.... -Read as: 'assume someone *cannot face*' -->therefore the sky is blue.! just great! And trash anyone who doesn't agree!-emph. mine. Oh! *I* don't want to be feeble and little (-:I could loose weight though :-) ...'Just don't want those nasty words on me!'... Guess I have to give up being openminded now.... I think 'modern' ways have given us much. Now we can dress up trash and make it seem real fine. Teach it to the young so it becomes so second nature that...well maybe that's *why* we are in such a mess? Just a thought... # I do not recommend this method of reply... It'll have to do for now... # Mike Gore # Institute for Computer Research. # These ideas/concepts do not imply views held by the University of Waterloo.