Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!mcnc!duke!rjn From: rjn@duke.UUCP (R. James Nusbaum) Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,net.religion.christian Subject: Re: A Fig for 'what's his name'. Message-ID: <8657@duke.duke.UUCP> Date: Thu, 2-Oct-86 11:19:01 EDT Article-I.D.: duke.8657 Posted: Thu Oct 2 11:19:01 1986 Date-Received: Sat, 11-Oct-86 07:04:49 EDT References: <5369@decwrl.DEC.COM> <8590@duke.duke.UUCP> <913@ho95e.UUCP> Reply-To: rjn@duke.UUCP (R. James Nusbaum) Organization: Duke University, Durham NC Lines: 76 Xref: linus talk.religion.misc:343 net.religion.christian:4798 In article <913@ho95e.UUCP> gkm@ho95e.UUCP (gkm) writes: >[deleted material] > >> I am not a Christian, but I am willing to listen and discuss the Christian >> viewpoint at any time. It is this kind of discussion which allows people >> >[deleted material] >> I am also amazed at people who post to the net without even bothering >> to substantiate their words. Perhaps this is inevitable in a discussion >> on religious issues. So many people have been taught religion since early >> >[deleted material] > >> Not wanting to beat a subject into the ground, but it keeps coming up. >> Christian supporters keep quoting from the Bible and other Christian >> religious works as 'proof' of certain things. I would hope that you will >[deleted material] >> >> Jim Nusbaum >> >> >Jim, I should think you would realize by now that Christians define >themselves and their beliefs by what is written to them by God in >the scriptures (i.e. The Bible). You and others refer to this as >circular reasoning, however when I, atleast refer to the Bible, I am >not trying to convince someone like yourself, but other Christians >who accept it as the Word of God. Should I attempt to convince you >or someone else who is not a Christian of the truth of Christianity, >I would use an entirely different approach. It is referred to as a >presuppositional argument. If is best presented by a Christian >named Cornelius Van Till. In essence, it shows that there are >really only two positions: the Christian one and the non-Christian >one. Next, each position is presupposed as being the truth, and >tested as to its ability to explain reality. > >Gary McNees Of course I realize that Christians define their beliefs by what is in the Bible! I'm glad that you would use an argument like you described, but the fact is that no one else has bothered to make an argument like that on this newsgroup and that is what I am complaining about. People keep saying to read the word of God, and repent and it will all be made clear to me. Bullshit! I've read enough of the 'word of God' and although I certainly agree with many of the moral standards and teachings of Christianity, I find nothing special in these teachings. They are basically the same as the moral teachings of many other religions and philosophies. As to the other aspects of Christainity, I've seen no reasons to suspect that these are true explanations of reality. I see very few devout Christians who I respect. The image of Christianity I see today in the US is that of TV preachers and abortion clinic bombers. When your God deals with these people, who are using his name and teachings in a warped way then maybe I'll believe. You and maybe others on the net may be good well meaning people, but the others drown out your voices. You know I would even be impressed if someone could give me a solid argument as to why Christainity is better than any other of the worlds major religions. BTW, I do believe in a superior power. I have only to look at the wonders of this planet and the living creatures on it to see my miracles. I don't need any promises of personal salvation to coerce me into loving my fellow creatures. What arogance it is to think that in the immensity of time and space, the creator would give a holy damn about the lives of a single species on a single planet. The creator has given us the greatest blessing imaginable, life and a beautiful planet to live it on. We make our own heavens and hells, don't blame them on God. Jim Nusbaum -- R. James Nusbaum, Duke University Computer Science Department, Durham NC 27706-2591. Phone (919)684-5110. CSNET: rjn@duke UUCP: {ihnp4!decvax}!duke!rjn ARPA: rjn%duke@csnet-relay