Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!columbia!heathcliff.columbia.edu!zdenek From: zdenek@heathcliff.columbia.edu (Zdenek Radouch) Newsgroups: sci.med Subject: Re: tone deafness? Message-ID: <3817@columbia.UUCP> Date: Tue, 11-Nov-86 19:59:43 EST Article-I.D.: columbia.3817 Posted: Tue Nov 11 19:59:43 1986 Date-Received: Tue, 11-Nov-86 21:59:55 EST References: <2376@bu-cs.bu-cs.BU.EDU> <3808@columbia.UUCP> <210@mind.UUCP> Sender: nobody@columbia.UUCP Reply-To: zdenek@heathcliff.columbia.edu.UUCP (Zdenek Radouch) Followup-To: sci.med Distribution: net Organization: Columbia University CS Department Lines: 70 In article <210@mind.UUCP> harnad@mind.UUCP (Stevan Harnad) writes: > >Absolute pitch is a special case of what psychophysicists call >"absolute judgment" (also called absolute discrimination, >identification, categorization, labeling). This is usually contrasted >with relative judgment (or relative disctimination, or just >discrimination). In relative discrimination, pairs of stimuli are >presented, and the subject must perform a relative comparison, usually >a same/different judgement, or a degree-of-similarity match. In >identification, on the other hand, the stimulus is presented alone, >and it must be given its correct (arbitrary, learned) "label" or name. The only problem with your "definition" is that it is as little explicit as those I was complaining about. I'll try to describe the ambiguity. Human ear can detect frequencies approximately from 20Hz to 20kHz. There is INFINITE number of frequencies (or pitches) in this range. The resolution of the ear is not infinite but certainly about two orders of magnitude higher than resolution necessary to identify notes in any musical system. A person identifying the pitch is basically determining if an unknown frequency Fx is from interval . It's perfectly clear that the ability to do that will depend on the size if the interval i.e., on ratio Fmax/Fmin. Now some numbers. 1. Human ear can identify the ratio 1.0006. This is my estimate, comments welcome. 2. The distance between two closest tones in western musical system (12 notes per octave) is 1.06. 3. The octave has ratio of 2. If we divide the audio range into two halves (low and high), anybody with normal hearing can tell whether the pitch is high or low. That corresponds to range of abot 30. As a result of my experience in music and acoustics I can tell you the frequency of a tone with approximately octave error i.e., factor of 2. This is a result of an exposure to music, not result of any training. Note that I don't satisfy your definition of having absolute pitch. An individual with absolute pitch can identify interval of 1.06. Since there is nothing absolute or natural in the concept of measuring time and thus frequencies, this individual MUST HAVE GONE through some training, or at least he must have been exposed to the same thing I was. You said "it must be given its correct (arbitrary, learned) "label" or name.". That's crude simplification. The person under test is performing quantization. i.e., labeling the unknown as "nth member of N" (even the person with absolute pitch is going to label all frequencies from <438Hz,442Hz> as "a1"). N=10 (my case) doesn't imply absolute pitch; N=100 does! How about N=73? What's the definition? Anyway, back to my original question. We have three people here. 1. "musical ignorant" that clearly identifies ratio of 30. 2. Me, identifying ratio of 2 after some training. 3. Person with absolute pitch identifying ratio of 1.06 after some training. It's clear that (3) remembered or learned more than (2) and somebody said that there is an evidence that the skills of (3) are inherited. I'd like to know what's that evidence. > ....As long as someone is not entirely >deaf, some frequency discrimination must be present. Why? Seems to me that it'll depend on the actual hearing mechanism. Also, considering that most of the theories prefer acquisition in frequency domain, I would tend to disagree with your statement. zdenek zdenek@cs.columbia.edu or ...!seismo!columbia!cs!zdenek