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From: spf@bonnie.ATT.COM
Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.cog-eng
Subject: Re: Searle, Turing, Symbols, Categories
Message-ID: <2805@clyde.ATT.COM>
Date: Thu, 13-Nov-86 12:13:19 EST
Article-I.D.: clyde.2805
Posted: Thu Nov 13 12:13:19 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 13-Nov-86 22:05:22 EST
References: <158@mind.UUCP> <150@cwrudg.UUCP> <160@mind.UUCP> <2495@utai.UUCP> <1817@rlvd.UUCP> <214@mind.UUCP>
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Reply-To: spf@bonnie.UUCP (Steve Frysinger)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Whippany NJ
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Xref: mnetor comp.ai:18 comp.cog-eng:5


>From clyde!rutgers!princeton!mind!harnad Thu Nov 13 11:36:38 EST 1986
>Organization: Cognitive Science, Princeton University
>Lines: 128
>Summary: On (1) whether having a mind is a necessary or merely a sufficient
>	 condition for having intelligence; and on (2) the open-endedness
>	 of the formal and informal Total Turing Test (TTT)
>Xref: clyde comp.ai:14 comp.cog-eng:3
>
>
>kgd@rlvd.UUCP (Keith Dancey) of Rutherford Appleton Laboratories,
>Atlas Buildings, U.K. writes:
>
>>	I don't think it wise to try and equate 'mind' and 'intelligence'.
>>	A 'mind' is an absolute thing, but 'intelligence' is relative.
>
>I'm not quite sure what you mean, but perhaps it is that intelligence
>seems to be something you can have to varying degrees, whereas a mind
>seems to be an all-or-none phenomenon. 

What is your operational definition (a la Bridgeman) of mind, or of
intelligence?  I think if you examine the notion of mind in the
psychological literature, you'll find only inadequate definitions,
most of which are circular in nature.  Notice that Turing hasn't defined
intelligence either.  He presumed the existence of such a definition
and then defined artificial intelligence in terms of that.

A) Is a mind a brain?
    If so, does any creature with a neurological complex (no matter
how simple) have a mind (and for that matter, can we not contemplate
a non-neurological brain)?
B)  Is mind conciousness?
  Does that mean that my unconscious experiences are "mindless"?
C)  Is mind intelligence?
  Does that mean that folks who consistently exhibit unintelligent
characteristics have no mind?

>Note that even in human beings (and other organisms) HOW intelligent
>they are is a matter of degree, but THAT they are intelligent at all
>seems to be an all-or-none accompaniment of being human beings (or
>other organisms).

I think this is merely an artifact of common language.  The
anthropologist might say that humans are intelligent (a binary
judgement), but you might claim that your boss is NOT (very) intelligent.
Do you really mean to say that your boss is not (very) human, or are you
merely using a higher-resolution definition of "intelligence" than
the anthropologist's binary intelligence metric?
 
In the end, we still lack the basic definition of that which we
seek to understand: intelligence.

Steve Frysinger
****

Remember what the doormouse said: "Feed your head!"
		-- Jefferson Airplane