Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!rutgers!sri-unix!hplabs!tektronix!orca!tekecs!stalker!jans
From: jans@stalker.gwd.tek.com (Jan Steinman)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.pascal
Subject: Re: Object oriented systems
Message-ID: <7929@tekecs.TEK.COM>
Date: Thu, 4-Dec-86 11:32:13 EST
Article-I.D.: tekecs.7929
Posted: Thu Dec  4 11:32:13 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 7-Dec-86 20:43:36 EST
References: <1414@PUCC.BITNET>
Sender: news@tekecs.TEK.COM
Reply-To: jans@stalker.UUCP (Jan Steinman)
Distribution: world
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville, OR
Lines: 59
Xref: mnetor comp.lang.smalltalk:24 comp.lang.pascal:12

In article <1414@PUCC.BITNET> 6111231@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>I just attended a lecture called "Why object oriented languages are hard
>to learn", although it might have been better titled "why smalltalk 80
>is hard to learn"... talking about the results of a study into why so few
>people are using Xerox's pet language.

Wait until Digitalk has 100,000 copies of Smalltalk/V out there!

>Basically, the lecturer had found that very few people (he said only one
>that he knew of) had really mastered the whole (all 2000 object types and
>500 message types)...

(You got that backwards -- there are about 200 classes, and about 5000
methods in ST80.)  I don't see what this proves.  How many people have
"mastered" all the Unix/C library functions, yet useful work (some would
claim :-) is still done in C.  I think quite the opposite is true of
Smalltalk, that it is easier to get useful things implemented without
having "mastery" of the whole environment.  Besides, I don't want to
clutter my mind with all that stuff when it is so easily accessible in
a Browser!

>...and that this was the reason that only (he claimed) 4 major software
>packages had been implemented in the language...

How many "major software packages" were available for C within three years
of its general availability?  How about Pascal?  Given languages of similar
ages, how many packages are avaliable for Modula-2 or Ada?

Besides, just what is a "major software package"?  I think your lecturer is
badly out of touch -- I know of a dozen or so "major software packages"
within Tek alone, and many of our customers have done wonderful things in
Smalltalk.  If your lecturer means that Xerox only has 4 packages, well,
that's their problem!

You specifically said "implemented", as opposed to "available".  It is true
that there is not much "available" software in Smalltalk, but that is because
Smalltalk lacks "critical mass", not because of deficiencies in the language.
Now that is is available for $99 for the most popular PC things should change.

>...He said that a group he is working with is developing a new implementation
>to be called deltatalk that will...

Aha!  The real motive for Smalltalk bashing!  If he thinks that a brand new
language will fare better in today's market, he better be prepared to give
it away so people will use it.  Not that people shouldn't continue to
develop languages, but any new ones will share Smalltalk's major shortcoming:
lack of user base.

>Don't bother with Mac ST80: one needs 4meg RAM and 300 meg disk space

This is a gross exaggeration.  16 bit Smalltalk functions quite well on the
Tek 4404 (68010 based) in 1M RAM with 40M disk.

It is true that Smalltalk is not (yet) for everyone.  Cheap implementations
for popular machines combined with plummetting memory and disk prices will
soon cause an explosion in Smalltalk activity.
:::::: Artificial   Intelligence   Machines   ---   Smalltalk   Project ::::::
:::::: Jan Steinman		Box 1000, MS 60-405	(w)503/685-2956 ::::::
:::::: tektronix!tekecs!jans	Wilsonville, OR 97070	(h)503/657-7703 ::::::