Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!rutgers!clyde!cuae2!ihnp4!ucbvax!MC.LCS.MIT.EDU!KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU From: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU Newsgroups: mod.politics Subject: (none) Message-ID: <12254914788.42.MCGREW@RED.RUTGERS.EDU> Date: Fri, 14-Nov-86 13:57:30 EST Article-I.D.: RED.12254914788.42.MCGREW Posted: Fri Nov 14 13:57:30 1986 Date-Received: Sun, 16-Nov-86 00:52:26 EST Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Reply-To: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU Organization: The ARPA Internet Lines: 122 Approved: poli-sci@red.rutgers.edu From: Steve Walton 3) Many individuals and corporations choose to invest in government bonds rather than in stocks and corporate bonds, thanks to the guaranteed high rate of return and tax exemption. Government borrowing is driving out private borrowing, to the great detriment of capital accumulation. Capital is necessary for productivity. Agreed. Beyond "adopt a libertarian system," however, I have heard no good suggestions from you on how to reduce the national debt. ... How many suggestions do you need? You might as well complain that nobody has given you good suggestions concerning a dirty floor other than "wash it". What do you want? To take another example, Thurow shows that during the 6 years from 1979 to 1985, blue-collar worker productivity ... had an average productivity INCREASE of 3 percent per year. Not because they were working harder or longer hours, but because of increased capitalization. Keith, the attitude implicit in this statement is, "Owners of companies take all of the risks by capitalizing business, therefore they should receive all of the benefits if their business succeeds." I have no such attitude. Doesn't a worker also take a risk when he takes a job with a company which is not guaranteed success? And shouldn't he receive some of the share of the rewards if it IS successful? Yes to both. I don't see why you think I think otherwise. The more successful a business the more it will be able to pay employees. The wages should be determined by bargaining between the employees and the employer. Overall business productivity fell largely because of the addition of white collar middle managers, who are totally non-productive. They are? Then why do businesses hire them? Good question. Probably because they aren't unionized :-). Seriously, what does it mean to say that a whole category of employees is totally non-productive? If they are, then why DO employers hire them? Wouldn't your statement imply that any business which decided to do without middle managers would suddenly become much more profitable? Even if he were to prove that government interference was a net benefit, which he certainly has not, it would still be BAD simply because it is immoral to steal. Oh, dear. As I have said before, taxation to support the government of a country in which you freely choose to live cannot possibly be equated with theft, ... Why not? What alternative does someone have who objects to taxation? If someone were to burglarize your apartment every few weeks, should he be held blameless because you did not move to a different apartment? Even if all apartments are raided by one burglar or another? Was what the Nazis did to the Jews ok? The Jews were free to leave Germany for several years after Hitler took power. Oh? Then please pray explain why we are about to be passed in productivity by Japan, ... I don't think we are. There are three main reasons why Japan is doing so well: 1) Most Japanese employees are willing to work 12 hour days with few breaks. 2) Japanese tend to save a much greater portion of their income than Americans. Most of this goes to capitalize industry. 3) They pay nothing for defense. While Americans pay for the defense of Japan and several other countries as well as America. ... the federal budget would not be balanced even if EVERYTHING the government does except defense and paying back the current indebtedness was eliminated. This is not true if you include social security, which you didn't. Neither is it true if you include state, county, and city budgets, even if you DO exclude social security. It isn't useful to think of taxes seperately even if that's how they appear. ... "Withdraw all American forces from overseas" is in the official Libertarian party platform, and is foolhardy in the extreme. Why? Our attempts to save the world has only gotten us hatred abroad. We should take George Washington's advice and avoid all foriegn entanglements. The communists win propoganda points whenever we mine a harbor or construct another military base abroad. Our military should have only a defensive role, and should have that role only on US soil. We can lead better by example than by bombing Tripoli. Do you have a plan for payback of the current Government debt in the event that we do adopt a Libertarian system? Not really. The government has made promises it can't keep, and it won't be able to keep them no matter who is in charge. I suppose the thing to do is to say that since the government bonds all promise paper money the government can simply print the appropriate amount of paper money, backed by nothing, when the bonds mature. It may not be worth very much, but then the government never promised that it would be. Come to think of it, that's exactly how it's done now. The important thing is that no NEW government borrowing would be done. ...Keith -------