Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!ll-xn!nike!ucbcad!ucbvax!jade!jkh From: jkh@jade.BERKELEY.EDU (Jordan K. Hubbard) Newsgroups: mod.rec.guns Subject: Submission to mod.rec.guns (Re: .223 misconceptions and shotguns) Message-ID: <1549@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: Wed, 29-Oct-86 19:37:55 EST Article-I.D.: jade.1549 Posted: Wed Oct 29 19:37:55 1986 Date-Received: Fri, 31-Oct-86 02:04:59 EST Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 111 Approved: jkh@ucbjade Author: hplabs!bnrmtv!zarifes@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Cc: zarifes@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu Article: 10:53 >> Article: 10:36 >> >> There are a few things to consider when purchasing a "home-defense" weapon. >> First, your neighbors. Any kind of weapon firing solid bullets, such as a >> handgun or rifle, is perfectly capable of going through 2 or 3 walls in a >> typical apartment complex and blowing your neighbor's 2-day-old baby in two. >> A shotgun is no garauntee against this, either. A couple of years ago, a >> young boy was playing in his garage. A guy across the street fired a 12-gauge >> loaded with #00 buck, and one of the pellets penetrated the garage door and >> killed the poor kid instantly. >> >> Second, familiarity. EVERYBODY who might be using the weapon should go out >> to a shooting range and fire a couple hundred rounds through it, and become >> completely familiar with loading, unloading (jettisoning unfired shells), and >> cleaning. The point is, if you EVER wake up in the middle of the night and >> hear somebody knocking around downstairs, you, and CERTAINLY your wife, >> are going to be VERY uptight. There's a good chance >> you'll forget to flip off the safety or forget to chamber in a shell. Cold >> sweat time! You make some excellent points, although some women may take exception to your use of the word "CERTAINLY" in the above paragraph. >> >> Third, weapon selection. The only solid-bullet piece that is safe would be >> a high-velocity, small-caliber weapon such as a .223. These bullets will >> disintegrate upon hitting any object of substance. However, if your victim >> is wearing heavy winter clothes, you might not accomplish much even if you >> did hit him. That brings us to buckshot. One thing to remember here is that Hold On there!! I own an AR-15, which is in .223 caliber, and have fired many different types of bullets in it. Both soft-point and FMJ ammo will NOT disintegrate on clothing, or even flesh. While firing at the range, I was surprised to see the .223 lift a gallon milk jug of water 3' up in the air, and still have a clean exit hole. I once had some 53 grain hollow point .223's loaded up, and they would disintegrate, but then, that is an unusual load. In any case I believe that they would penetrate any amount of clothing one was wearing. The poor .223 has been the victim of immense amounts of hyperbole. It isn't my intent to provide the complete ballistic history of the round, but let me address one thing. The .223 bullet has been said to 'tumble' when fired. This is bull. It (any many other high-velocity bullets with a similar profile) has been known to tumble when it IMPACTS with flesh. But then, so has the .22 rimfire. The tumbling effect is the result of a combination of effects, among them; bullet design and weight, rifling twist, powder used, etc.. The Russians, with their development of a 5.43mm (.223 == 5.56mm) round, have (probably accidentally) produced a round which also 'tumbles' when it hits flesh. It does this by using a bullet with an iron and lead core, with some air space as well. It is not a hollow point bullet, but is a hollow bullet. Supposedly it produces very lethal wounds. Note that the new M16 has a different bbl. twist to function with the new armour piercing ammo, and this may (or may not) produce different impact behavior with standard ammo. >> regardless of the size of the shot, the total weight of the load, and thus >> its total energy, remains the same. A standard 12-gauge #00 load only has >> 9 to 12 pellets. If only two or three hit him, you could find yourself in an >> exciting situation. Of course, smaller stuff like #7 1/2's won't have enough >> penetration, but they would probably knock him down. I'd suggest BB shot >> or perhaps #2's. These give you a much denser pattern (45 to 100 pellets), This paragraph is very confusing. I'm not going to try an analyze it, but will comment a bit on the subject addressed. First and foremost, the impact of any small-arms' round will not, in and of itself, knock you down. The "knockdown" cause is related to the disruption of tissue and nerves, so that it really only applies if you hit an area that is unarmored. A person wearing soft body armour will not be knocked down even by a .308, as long as they are well balanced, and have a bulletproof vest up to the level required to stop the round. This said, I prefer using buckshot when I use a shotgun. I wouldn't use a shotgun in my apartment, unless I knew I had nothing to lose by firing. It has been shown in many tests that a load of birdshot will make just as big a hole in a plasterboard wall as buckshot. Aside from that, a shotgun is a difficult weapon for the uninitiated to clear a house with, and is more easily levered away by an opponent. It also had a huge muzzle blast, and muzzle flash in the dark. I would much prefer a pistol, loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs or some other frangible ammo, for home use. My personal choice currently is a Detonics Mk. I .45 auto, loaded with my own 200 grain Speer JHP load. It has more penetration then most people might want, but I don't intend to shoot at anything I can't see, and which isn't close enought to pretty much guarantee a hit. However, I will probably move to using Glasers as soon as I verify that they work properly in my Detonics. >> can penetrate well, and enough of them will hit the target to do the job. It >> would be comparable to getting hit in the chest with a bowling ball at >> about 40-50 mph. If your wife is also to use the thing, she'd probably be >> better off with a 20-gauge, which has MUCH less recoil than a big 12, yet is >> just as effective. My own "house gun" is an old Sears 20-gauge pump, loaded >> with #4's in 3-inch magnum shells and sawed off to 18 inches. Picked it up >> at a pawn shop for $100. It's light, fast, and deadly. Good luck. Come on, a 3" magnum has less recoil than a standard 12 ga. ? Maybe, but it has to a pretty close call. If I'd chosen the 20 ga. for recoils' sake, I'd stick with non-magnum loads for it. Otherwise I'd just use a 12 guage. >> >> Ron Morgan >> >> -- >> osmigo1, UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas 78712 >> ARPA: osmigo1@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU >> UUCP: ihnp4!ut-ngp!osmigo1 allegra!ut-ngp!osmigo1 gatech!ut-ngp!osmigo1 >> seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo1 harvard!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo1 Robert Allen, robert@sri-spam.ARPA