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From: christian@topaz.UUCP
Newsgroups: mod.religion.christian
Subject: Romans 9
Message-ID: <7251@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>
Date: Sat, 22-Nov-86 21:01:26 EST
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Posted: Sat Nov 22 21:01:26 1986
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Count me as another who has trouble with Romans 9.  I don't have any
problems until we get to verse 20 (funny thing).  Paul is certainly reading
the Isaiah he quotes in a sense different from that in its original context.
The "potter" quote originally appears in the context of "why do you think
you can outwit me?  I created you, don't you think I understand your
schemes?"  But then Paul gets sucked up in the clay analogy, and imputes
upon it the notion that God exerts His will upon every aspect of our being
all the time.

Besides the fact that accepting it as it stands justifies the Maltheist
criticism, there is a constant thread of imagery in the NT of God not
summoning us, but calling to us.  Salvation is *offered*, Jesus *calls* us,
"no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me *draws* him".  (by the
way, I have to disagree with Tom over John 6:44; the verse that follows
speaks of the Father teaching and calling to those whom he draws, no force
of will being implied at all.)  Taking all of this together, I have to
conclude that some people are predestined for salvation, and that God acts
deliberately to harden the hearts of some, but that He chooses not to exert
His will to compell the vast majority.  I therefore agree with Tom that the
principle point of the passage is that the children of Israel cannot rely on
the blessing given to their forefathers for salvation, yet I think that Paul
goes off the rails right at the end and asserts a universal lack of freedom
which to my mind runs counter to the rest of scripture.

C. Wingate