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Path: utzoo!henry
From: henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.groups
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Information requested on succes
Message-ID: <7336@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 21-Nov-86 17:24:51 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.7336
Posted: Fri Nov 21 17:24:51 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 21-Nov-86 17:24:51 EST
References: <7321@utzoo.UUCP>, <1513@uwmcsd1.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 55

[regarding putting mod.announce.newusers first in order]

> And I say that this will benefit at least *some* of the new users of
> the net.  This will at least help *those* individuals onto the path
> of net.correctness...

True.  But it won't get all the new users "automatically", as you suggested
in your original posting.

>  Saying that new net users join more selectively
> is giving them more sophistication than I think is warranted...

On the contrary.  Most new net users are unaware of the ability to
unsubscribe, and think that what they get is what's listed in the "options -n"
line in their .newsrc.  This plus the massive volume of network traffic
strongly encourages them *not* to just put "all" in that line, which means
they get only the groups they explicitly select.

> Finally, I say that anything this simple that has positive benefit to the
> net, and if anyone disagrees that this *does* have positive benefit they
> may discuss their reasons via e-mail, should be implemented.  

Positive benefit, yes, but it also has costs.  The question is whether the
benefit outweighs the costs.  Considering the rather uncertain percentage
of the new users who would actually be affected by it, this isn't clear.

> [Wasn't there a "feature" in 2.11 that would *forbid* the unsubscription to
> the *.announce.newusers group, or have I confused this with something else?
> If there is no such feature, maybe there *should* be.]

This would only encourage the more experienced users to hack their local
news software to remove the restriction, since they don't really want to see
the newusers stuff popping up in front of them again and again.  We cannot
control exactly what software people run; the most we can do is to supply
reasonable software and hope that they won't feel motivated enough to mess
with it.  Persistent inconvenience to sophisticated users will supply all
the motivation necessary.  I laud the goal, but this is the wrong method.

> Sorry about this, Henry, but your message came across as anti-help-
> the-new-user.

I agree that we need to help the new user more, but it isn't clear to me
that this idea will be enough help to enough new users to justify it.

> Even if my suggestion does not help *all* new users, lets help at least
> *some* of them, OK?

If it helps (say) 95% of new users, it would clearly be a good idea.  If it
only helps (say) 5% -- the ones who are already conscientious enough to
look into a group for new users -- then I say it's not worth the hassle
of implementing it and trying to get it widely used.  I fear it's likely to
be much closer to the latter than the former.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry