Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!rutgers!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.origins,sci.bio Subject: Re: Evolution vs.(?) Creationism Message-ID: <1259@cybvax0.UUCP> Date: Tue, 9-Dec-86 10:11:24 EST Article-I.D.: cybvax0.1259 Posted: Tue Dec 9 10:11:24 1986 Date-Received: Wed, 10-Dec-86 05:23:25 EST References: <635@argus.UUCP> <189@cpro.UUCP> Reply-To: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Followup-To: talk.origins Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA Lines: 71 Keywords: experimental evolution God creation art time travel Xref: mnetor talk.politics.misc:1187 talk.origins:185 sci.bio:43 This doesn't belong in talk.politics: followups to talk.origins. While I am well convinced of evolution, there are a few commonly repeated claims which need to be debunked. In article <635@argus.UUCP>, ken@argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) writes: > How about that moth that turned black in response to increased air > pollution, and turned gray again in response to air pollution controls? This is THE most often repeated claim of natural selection in action. Industrial melanism of the Pepper Moth is widely repeated in textbooks (which are notorious for the propagation of old, refuted, or pseudo "facts".) However, at a seminar given by Dr. Ted Sargent (one of the foremost experts on predation and color variation within populations of moths), he claimed that the original study was invalid on a host of methodological grounds. The most memorable criticism was that nobody had actually witnessed predation of a wild moth by a bird. While experiments have demonstrated the plausibility of the concealment/predation hypothesis both in the lab and in the forest, it just hasn't been observed in nature. Other problems included sampling biases according to collector and locality. Current research on Biston betularia (the Pepper Moth) seeks to remedy these problems, but it would be difficult to repeat the "experiment" without another industrial revolution. This news makes a good measure of who does and doesn't have a scientific attitude towards evolution. If you can't let go of a cherished belief in the face of evidence, you're not taking a scientific attitude. I'm happy to say that at the Cambridge Entomological Society meeting where this was discussed, alot of people were distraught, but none seemed to reject the position. Unfortunately, I don't think this news has been published yet. Dr. Sargent has made no secret of it, and it is widely known within research circles, but I think he is gathering information to make a definitive statement. > How would you explain the increased resistance to DDT from insects? This is a good example of artificial selection (no more natural than industrial melanism of the pepper moth.) There is a vast scientific literature on increasing resistance to pesticides. Crop pests develop resistance to most pesticides within 3 to 10 years, creating a sort of biochemical arms race between the chemical companies and the pests. In article <189@cpro.UUCP> asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes: > And how about the evolution of Haike crabs in Japan. It has been seen that > these remarkable creatures evolved (with carapaces with likenesses of samurai > on them) within recorded history. Legends say these crabs are the souls of > warriors who drowned in the bay after a failed sea battle. Fishermen would > routinely throw back into the water any crab that had any semblence to a > warrior. In the course of time a whole new species appeared with _very_ > good images of recognizable japanese faces on their carapaces. This sounds like a pretty little just-so story to me. It should be possible to gather good evidence of this, perhaps from shell middens, or by comparing populations that have been selected with populations that haven't. I doubt that such evidence exists. How can we observe current evolutionary change? The very first thing we need is baseline data. You can't say change has occurred unless you can make a comparison. For the near future we will have difficulty, because there are few "before" samples (other than fossils) that we can use for comparisons. In the intermediate distant future, we will be able to compare populations that were introduced to islands with baseline data being collected right now. -- "Enough of acting the infant who has been told so often how he was found under a cabbage that in the end he remembers the exact spot in the garden and the kind of life he led there before joining the family circle." Samuel Beckett -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh