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From: brad@looking.UUCP
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Ok, so what is socialism? Re: Down with Democracy!
Message-ID: <747@looking.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 28-Feb-87 22:50:56 EST
Article-I.D.: looking.747
Posted: Sat Feb 28 22:50:56 1987
Date-Received: Sun, 1-Mar-87 15:42:42 EST
References: <3047@watdcsu.UUCP> <4197@utcsri.UUCP> <3059@watdcsu.UUCP> <5471@watmath.UUCP> <630@sask.UUCP>
Reply-To: @looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Distribution: can
Organization: Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 44

In article <630@sask.UUCP> reid@sask.UUCP (I am NOT your Sweet Baboo) writes:
>
>Worker control of the means of production is one of the central ideas in
>Marxism.  Marxist-Leninism extends this control to the state, since the
>workers are supposed to be in control of the state.
>
>Socialism in general (try to find a good hard definition of socialism some
>time...) does not concern itself with the means of production; more
>important is the idea that the state is responsible for the well-being of
>its inhabitants.  That may be achieved by state control of production, but
>is more often done through taxation of a private economy and a strong social
>welfare system.
>
>> A socialist believes that it is right to steal no matter how many people
>> don't want it to happen.

Well, I will admit that people do seem to think up all sorts of meanings
for that word, "socialism" -- but they all apply to my statement above.

One common one found in dictionaries is:
	"A philosophy of state control or ownership of the means of production"
 another is
	"A political principle advocating cooperative action and community
	of property"
 others can be found, including those similar to yours, although that one
 rarely comes first.

What I think has happened is that since 'socialist' is a perjoritave term in
the USA, people have tried to move the definition of the word (or the word
they use for themselves) to avoid the stigma.  The dictionary definitions
are older, and closer to the original meaning.

One common thread exists in all the definitions of socialism I have seen.
Some form of denial of private property.  Either a belief that the state
should control the means of production or through "taxation of a private
economy."

And thus, by anybody's defintion, my remark with respect to socialists and
their belief in the rightness of theft still stands.

Or do you dispute my definition of theft -- "the taking of a person's
property against his or her will?"
-- 
Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473