Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!utcsri!sask!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!manis
From: manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: who should pay for education. sort of.
Message-ID: <884@ubc-cs.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 3-Mar-87 22:29:12 EST
Article-I.D.: ubc-cs.884
Posted: Tue Mar  3 22:29:12 1987
Date-Received: Wed, 4-Mar-87 02:46:02 EST
References: <215@fornax.uucp> <2770@hcrvx2.UUCP>
Reply-To: manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis)
Distribution: can
Organization: UBC Department of Computer Science
Lines: 40

In article <2770@hcrvx2.UUCP> jimr@hcrvx2.UUCP (Jim Robinson) writes:

>At the risk of stereotyping I have to say that John [Chapman]'s suggestion is
>extremely typical of socialist (or social democratic, if you prefer)
>thinking: 
>
>First off, decide what is "best" for society, giving only
>minor considerations as to whether the individual's rights suffer as a
>result. Then, when the individual refuses to go along with this latest
>version of Utopia, enact oppressive legislation that forces him to do
>so. 

FLAMAGE AHEAD!!!

At the risk of stereotypying I have to say that Jim's remarks are 
extremely typical of fascist (or reactionary, if you prefer) thinking:

First off, take a dying cat, and bash its brains out against a wall. 
Then, when people are grossed out, say it's your right. (If you've seen
Bertolucci's 1900, you'll know about the dead cat.)

Enough with the ad hominem arguments. My point was to show that things
aren't true simply because we say they are.

First, John's suggestion is not that far from the present situation: if
you take out a Canada Student Loan, default on it, and leave the country,
the govt, through its collection agency, can take legal action against you
for recovery. If you don't reenter Canada, you can successfully avoid
repaying. All John was really suggesting was that CSL's be available for 
100% of your tuition, and be forgiven if you're an excellent student.

Second, Jim has a somewhat distorted view of socialism. As a committed
socialist, I'm the first to argue that socialism is not a complete
philosophy of the world, any more than any set of beliefs except Biblical
literalism. I'm therefore quite happy to learn from liberals and
conservatives, not to mention libertarians. I wish they could return the
compliment. To get to the point, socialism has a different view (or
different views: put 3 socialists together in a room and you get 4 opinions)
of the state. This view may or may not work (it's never been tried), but 
you can't simply identify it with things you don't like, without further ado.