Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!lll-lcc!styx!ames!ucbcad!ucbvax!decvax!decwrl!sun!cmcmanis From: cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: Some thoughts and questions about the Ranger (long) Message-ID: <14614@sun.uucp> Date: Fri, 6-Mar-87 14:19:47 EST Article-I.D.: sun.14614 Posted: Fri Mar 6 14:19:47 1987 Date-Received: Sun, 8-Mar-87 10:05:57 EST References: <140@tahoma.UUCP> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Mtn View, CA Lines: 182 Keywords: A2500, Ranger, X-Windows, Unix Summary: Buying one machine, and wanting another. Many people have flamed the Amiga for not being the machine of their dreams just as many have adamantly supported it for being so wonderful. To quote 'The Guy in the Cape' I am a "card carrying Amiga Tribesman" so understand that the following will be a bit biased :-), I also work at Sun and have a good feel for what it costs to produce a '020 based UNIX workstation domestically. With that said on with the story ... In article <140@tahoma.UUCP>, bakken@tahoma.UUCP (Dave Bakken) writes: > > Some thoughts and a few questions about the elusive A2500 Ranger, which seems to > be out of the picture until at least fall: > > 1) Please give us a Ranger, not just expecting us to buy an A2000 and > upgrade to the 68020. See items 3, 4, and 6. The A2000 and even A1000 with the CSA 68020 board set is a very powerful machine. It is also compatible with existing software. > 2) Please give us X-Windows, Version 11, in addition to the current window > system. X-11 is in beta now (or real soon) and is supposed to hit the > streets by fall. I really like the windows now, better than the windows > from workstations A,M, and S. But X-11 would give the A2500 users > a host of public domain programs that will likely be circulating > within 6-12 months. And it would make it easy for vendors to > port sophisticated applications to the A2500 that probably would not get > ported if it were not that easy. CAD and CAE programs, especially circut > schematic capture, simulation, and PCB layout seem likely > candidates. I doubt Commodore will 'give' you X-windows although there is no reason why you can't port it yourself. If the interface is as independent of UNIX as it should be, then within 6-12 months one should be able to get it running? (I have no information on how difficult this would be.) If you can figure out a way to sell your port of X it would probably pay for that CSA expansion board above :-). The reason that Commodore probably wouldn't do this is fairly obvious, it has no backwards compatibility and they do want to support the 200K + users out there. The other question is size, how much space does X take and how much overhead is there per task, will it fit in 1 meg? 2? I don't know. > 3) Please give us a 19" monitor and at least 700x1000 resolution. > I have worked on 19" workstations tubes from 2 different vendors, and > then gone home to my 13" Amiga, and the extra room sure makes a difference. > With 13" screens you can really see one page of information at once, where > with 19" you can see most of 2 1/2 pages. > I think the cost of bigger tubes will go down soon. I saw a flood of > 20" monitors for $450-$500 on sale this January, and a 27" (Sony?) for $600 > (unfortunately, none had RBG - I checked at least 6 of them). Sony seems > enlightened on this, at least if you look at their KV1311CR, so perhaps they > will have out a larger monitor with RGB out by fall... (I may be wrong, but Dave appears to be confusing actual monitor size versus how many pixels can be displayed. If I mis-read the above I apologize) Changing the size of the monitor does not change the 'resolution' of the screen. The pixels just get bigger. My next message will contain a quick synopsis of video graphics generation for a better explanation of this. I will say this here though, monitor prices are currently about as follows 19" Monochrome - 60Khz monitors (1K X 900 possible) are about $800 19" Color RGB - 60Khz monitors (1K X 900 possible) are about $3200 13" Color RGB - 32Khz monitors (750 X 450 possible) are about $500 13" Monochrome - 15.575 Khz (640 X 400 interlaced) are about $70 13" Color RGB - 15.575 Khz (640 X 400 interlaced) are about $250 19" Color RGB - 15.575 Khz (640 X 400 interlaced) are about $600 Your prices may vary. The 13" hi-res color above is a NEC multisync and the 19" Color at the bottom is a Sony XBR monitor. The 19" prices are pretty much bare bones monitors, some manufacturers like BarCo will wrap it up in a plastic shell for you (So you don't electocute yourself on it) > .... Does anyone know how > much more it costs a manufacturer to make a monitore with analog RGB than > with NTSC? Only what it costs to add the connectors to drive each gun and some level shifting circuitry. However if it is NTSC compatible don't look for any more that 640 X 400 resolution. (See the next posting) > 4) Please give us Unix with the Korn shell. And please give us a full Unix, > not selling make or other utilities separately. Do you know how *big* UNIX is? Even if people weren't screaming bloody murder at the price of a hard disk you would need at least 40 Mbytes of space, additional hardware in the system (an MMU at least if you wanted VM) Ok, so that adds another $2000. At least with the A2000 you can use those cheap IBM PC harddisks. You are going to need them. > 5) Thank heavens the A2000's planned 68020 upgrade includes an MMU, > according to BYTE and COMPUTE. That means our Ranger will have to, also. > Has anyone heard when this upgrade should hit the streets (maybe we may > hear after C-A announces the A2000 or units ship in volume). Given how > quickly the A2000 followed the Sidecar, I think it is not unreasonable to > assume the Ranger announcement will follow fairly quickly after the shipment > of that upgrade. Hmmm, well maybe if you believe that Commodore will build a 'ranger.' Personally I have seen Commodore build nothing but C-64's for a while, I would make the wild speculative guess that since the A2000 with 68020 upgrade puts them smack in the middle of the current PC wars that they would instead turn to reducing costs and fight that battle based on their manufacturing skills. I don't see any indication that they want to get into the UNIX workstation business and take on Sun, Apollo, DEC, and IBM. Also note that when the A2286 (AT plug in) is available for the A2000 you can buy one of those, a 2 Meg ram card, a maxstor 160Meg disk, and Xenix/V from Microsoft or Santa Cruz Operations. Then run UNIX as a background window on the Amiga. Really clever hackers could run X or NeWS on the Amiga side UNIX on the AT side and have them communicate via the shared memory. > 6) CA seems to doubt whether there is a market for a $2500-$3000 > super-PC. Certainly marketing realities rather than the dreams > of comp.sys.amiga subscribers (this one included) must dictate many of > the details of the machine, but I think they are underestimating the market. > Look at how many business types and even home users paid $3000-$5000 for XT > or AT systems when they first came out. When they see how much they can get > done on the A2500 with the horsepower, large and elegant windows, and IBM > compatibility and slots (which seems to be a given), I think a lot may jump. > (Perhaps I should say *IF* they see this, because CA advertising types seem > to like chiq BW pictures of schoolchildren or pictures of King Tut rather > than showing off the multitasking and elegent windowing interface, which > set it apart from all other PCs. The machine sells itself, given half > a chance). And there are a lot of companies that would like to give each > technical type a workstation on his/her desk but are too cheap or lack the > insight to pay $10K-$15K per desk. Me thinks a lot of these may jump, too, > especially with Unix and X-11. Bad news Dave, Commodore is betting that there is a market for a $2500 to $3000 super-PC and it is called the Amiga 2000, coming to a store near you. Given the estimate that initial pricing will be $1500 and the monitor is $500 (High Persistence) and the SCSI disk and controller are another $900 your looking at a $2900 multitasking Super-PC. If they built the 'ranger' as you described it today it would cost $10 to $15K. (like wow deja-vu). Something that maybe you haven't considered is that the workstation business is *very* competitive, and every major workstation vendor is trying it's best to put out UNIX workstations at the lowest possible price. AND THEY STILL COST $12,000. Commodore doesn't have access to any miracle sources of free equipment, why should they be able to produce them more cheaply? Even the Mac ][ when fitted out with high resolution color and a disk is $11,000 (and that doesn't include UNIX or more memory). > 7) 8 sound channels would be very nice. This would be nice, and the hardware to drive them. Assuming people are using the audio.device there should not be compatibility problems. Personally I would like to see a MIDI port too, not necessarily to add a synthesizers sound capability, simply to add the synthesizers keyboard. Right now I use my DX100 as a keyboard for the Amiga when I am not dialed up. > 8) An SCSI port built in would be nice, too, and a strong selling point. According to the press the A2000 will have a SCSI port as an option, when it is released (plug in board). I agree building it in is the smart way to go. > 9) Finally, a question. Could the OS provide a convention for a program > to detect which Amiga model it was running on so it could fully exploit > its features. Otherwise, programs might be written to the lowest > common denominator (A500) and not take advantage of the 2500. For > example, if the A2500 had 8 sound channels a software vendor might have > to have an A2500 version of his music program or only use 4 channels. Well as mentioned above you could conceivably keep asking for sound channels until the open failed. But most people don't do that. As it stands the A500, A2000, and A1000 are all identical in built in hardware capabilities. So you don't need to know which one you are on. If they change the machine radically it would be a good thing to have as a variable in ExecBase or something. > Comments are welcome - I hope this stimulates some discussion about what > features are desirable and feasible for the Ranger. C-A, how about a > comment on 7-9? > Dave Bakken As you can see you got some :-). Stay tuned for Basic Amiga Video, same bat time, same bat channel. -- --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.