Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watnot!watmath!clyde!cbatt!ucbvax!WISCVM.WISC.EDU!MAILER-DAEMON%hila.UUCP%FINGATE.BITNET From: MAILER-DAEMON%hila.UUCP%FINGATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-ID: <8703091338.AA12033@hila.UUCP> Date: Sat, 7-Mar-87 18:50:26 EST Article-I.D.: hila.8703091338.AA12033 Posted: Sat Mar 7 18:50:26 1987 Date-Received: Tue, 10-Mar-87 05:03:21 EST Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Distribution: world Organization: The ARPA Internet Lines: 501 ----- Transcript of session follows ----- mail11: %MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node SAMPO mail11: -SYSTEM-F-INVLOGIN, login information invalid at remote node 550 ... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from santra.UUCP (santra.ARPA) by hila.UUCP (4.12/4.7) id AA10172; Sun, 8 Mar 87 23:34:35 GMT Received: by santra.UUCP (5.51/6.4.TeKoLa) id AA05482; Sun, 8 Mar 87 23:33:47 +0200 From: Message-Id: <8703082133.AA05482@santra.UUCP> Received: by fingate Sun Mar 8 23:33:43 from MAILER@FINHUTC.BITNET via rscs BSMTP. Received: by FINHUTC (Mailer X1.23b) id 9823; Sun, 08 Mar 87 23:26:14 FIN Date: Sat 7 Mar 87 15:50:26 PST Reply-To: santra::Score.Stanford.edu::Info-Atari16 Sender: "Atari ST users forum (INFO-ATARI16)" Comments: To: "Distribution List: ;" Original-From: Info-Atari16 Digest Subject: Info-Atari16 Digest V87 #117 To: , Original-To: , Info-Atari16 Digest Saturday, March 7, 1987 Volume 87 : Issue 117 This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield Today's Topics: Re: Let's here it for ATARI Re: Changing the Mouse Handler Re: Upgrading a 1040 to 4 Megs HD & LogiKhrons: do they get along? Re: Upgrading a 1040 to 4 Megs Re: Memory Shortage Problem???? Re: Quiry about the reliability of Atari hard disks Atari Fairs for 1987 Re: LISP for the ST How do you adjust floppy drive speed? Screendumps (printer driver) FINALLY!! for LQ-800 Standards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Mar 87 19:09:26 GMT From: imagen!atari!leavens@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Alex Leavens) Subject: Re: Let's here it for ATARI To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu > I've been really impressed by Alex Leavans. > He seems to know a great deal about both lines of computers. >>Blush<< Thank you. I hope to continue to be of help to you all. That's what I'm here for! --alex @ Atari BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 18:53:11 GMT From: imagen!atari!leavens@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Alex Leavens) Subject: Re: Changing the Mouse Handler To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu > Mouse handler characteristics get reset after exiting a program? Probably. You might try making it a desk acc, though, and keying off of system messages... --alex @ Atari BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 18:56:23 GMT From: imagen!atari!leavens@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Alex Leavens) Subject: Re: Upgrading a 1040 to 4 Megs To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu > Like Bill Wood, I would also like to see a cheap add-on box that will > give the ST 68020/68881 power (ala Mac II...). Those are almost exactly the specs for our upcoming 68020 box which will plug into the back of the DMA port on existing ST's, and use the ST as a superfast smart terminal. (The 68020 box looks like sometime in 88). --alex @ Atari BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006 ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 EDT From: "V5130B::MENTON" Subject: HD & LogiKhrons: do they get along? To: "info-atari16" Reply-To: "V5130B::MENTON" Several of us are using the LogiKhron clock module that plugs into the cartridge port of the ST. We've been quite happy with them for several months, BUT: we've just connected Supra 20 meg hard drives. I seem to remember, many months ago, comments about the LogiKhron creating problems when a hard drive is used. Can someone refresh my memory on this point? Is it still felt that LogiKhron clock modules and hard drives do not get along? Bob Menton KG3J MENTON@NRL-ACOUSTICS "You know better than to trust a strange computer." ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 11:57:33 GMT From: ihnp4!chinet!cabbie@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Andrews) Subject: Re: Upgrading a 1040 to 4 Megs To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu In article <579@atari.UUCP> neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) writes: >In article <2337@usceast.UUCP>, tech@usceast.UUCP (Bill Wood) writes: >> I am MAD AS HELL AT DIGITAL RESEARCH!!! >While I cannot, in my official capacity here, cast aspersions on Digital >Research, there are certainly those who echo Bill Wood's sentiments. The >bottom line is, GEM was there when we needed it. The alternative, Windows, >would have probably taken an extra year, a year we could not afford. I tend to agree that DRI GEM is not what it is all seems to be, at least it is a semi workable OS albeit brain-damaged. >We've been working hard at going through the code and making it work as best >we can, especially in the case of problems (like the 40 folder limit) that >turn up as we go along. I for one can see the effort put forth by the staff at Atari to fix the bugs in the current OS. >All in all, a most interesting set of observations, Bill. > >> By the way Neil, if you are reading this, I sure hope that you >> guys will remember us when you get around to designing you 32-bit >> system. I would very much rather give you guys $1500.00 or so for a box (remainder of paragraph deleted) >As a matter of fact, the system you describe is almost exactly what we're >working on. In the works is a 68020-based system which has none of its own >I/O except for a pair of DMA ports. It will plug into the back of a current >ST computer and act as a high-powered number cruncher. The 68881 and >Motorola MMU will also be part of the hardware, with UNIX system V or some >close relation being the software part. The ST acts as a "genius terminal". That is the very thing that I am looking for Neil. I have seen a lot of veteran users around chicago 'throwing away' the GEM interface at almost every occasion and reverting to a UNIX like environment. The guys (and gals) seem to be using Micro-c-shell or similar for most work. The generic users are still using GEM but the hobby programmers are using a Command line interface. One comment on UNIX system V or "some close relation". Make it TRUE Unix system 5.X! And throw away the MSDOS compatability for file structure, diskette usage, etc. True it might be a nightmare to write a manual for the new user describing the system, but this new sytem that you describe is not for the new user anyway. I had some serious second thoughts about the ST series and the future, but with what you are telling us I will hang in there. I personally want a system that has UNIX system 5.X, capabilities for 2-6 serial ports and can support any size or number of drives. Of course the system will come with all 'c' tools for programming and some type of 'vi' editor. Now for the good part. Sell the critter for $1200-$2200! If all of these requirements are met let me know what the final cost is with shipping and I will transfer the funds now! If you are taking orders put me down for one (maybe two). -- --->Neil Harris @ Atari...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil -- ******************************************************************************* Any opinions expressed above are my own. Rich Andrews They can be yours too. Please send $19.95 to.....ihnp4!chinet!cabbie ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 18:58:54 GMT From: imagen!atari!leavens@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Alex Leavens) Subject: Re: Memory Shortage Problem???? To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu > ...Eternal ramdisc, and NEO doesnt' run. > P.S. When I reduce the RAMdisk to 80k, NEO.PRG runs, but is buggy. A number of the ramdiscs on the market chew up memory in odd ways, especially the ones that are supposed to survive reset. I'd try a different eternal ramdisc, and see if that fixes the problem. --alex @ Atari BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 19:04:36 GMT From: imagen!atari!leavens@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Alex Leavens) Subject: Re: Quiry about the reliability of Atari hard disks To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu > I have the opportunity to purchase an Atari 20 Mbyte hard disk for our > 1040ST. The drive appears to be in good condition though it comes used and > Hard > disk appears to be in vogue, wouldn't a large RAM disk in memory serve even > better for quiet and fast temporary storage? > Developing off a ram disc is (IMHO) nice, but asking for trouble. What happens if the program you're developing crashes the machine? Your source code is history. what happens if you get a power surge or a blackout? History. I much prefer a hard disc. I've had an Atari 20 meg hard disc for 1 1/2 years now, and it runs very reliably. Be sure to get rev. 8 of the hard disc software if you get the drive. --alex @ Atari BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 18:16:58 GMT From: imagen!atari!neil@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Neil Harris) Subject: Atari Fairs for 1987 To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu SCHEDULED ATARI FAIRS MARCH 1987 Hilton Hotel - Allentown, PA Sat 03/14/87 & Sun 03/15/87 Sponsored by: ABE's ACES Contact: Shirley Bickert (215) 837-6799 110 Old Forge Dr, Bath, PA 18014 APRIL 1987 Salt Lake City, UT Fri 04/10/87, Sat 04/11/87 Sponsored by: ACE of Salt Lake Contact: Chris Christopolus (801) 486-8009 P.O. Box 26664, Salt Lake City, UT 84126 APRIL 1987 Buffalo Convention Center - Buffalo, NY Sat 04/25/87, Sun 04/26/87 Sponsored by: Western New York Atari User Group Contact: Bill Beerbower (716) 875-6555 P.O. Box 59, Buffalo, NY 14216 MAY 1987 Infomart - Dallas, TX Fri 05/08/87, Sat 05/09/87 Sponsored by: DAL-ACE, North Texas ST Users Contact: Bill Bailey (214) 240-4337 4834 Collingwood, Garland, TX 75043 MAY 1987 Seattle Center, FLAG Pavillion - Seattle, WA Sat 05/16/87, Sun 05/17/87 Sponsored by: 5 local user groups Contact: Bruce Noonan (206) 775-0545/745-2867 21700 76 Ave. West, Edmonds, WA 98020 JUNE 1987 JULY 1987 Ramada Hotel O'Hare - Rosemont, IL Sat 07/25/87, Sun 07/26/87 Sponsors: Consortium of local user groups including SCAT & LCACE & CL.A.U.G. Contact: Rich Bollmeier (312) 662-8676 2928 Brookside, Waukegan, IL 60085 AUGUST 1987 Detroit, MI -- Details forthcoming SEPTEMBER 1987 Glendale Civic Auditorium - Glendale, CA Sat 09/19/87, Sun 09/20/87 Sponsored by: ACENET Contact: John King Tarpinian (818) 760-1831 6055 Cahuenga Blvd. #2, N. Hollywood, CA 91606 SEPTEMBER 1987 Worcester Centrum - Worcester, MA Sat 09/26/87, Sun 09/27/87 - tentative Sponsored by: Boston Computer Society's Atari SIG Alan Glick (617) 296-8286 1 Center Plaza, Boston, MA 02108 OCTOBER 1987 Washington D. C. - facility still to be determined Sat 10/17/87 Sponsored by: NOVATARI Contact: Joe Waters (703) 450-4761 122 N. Johnson Rd., Sterling, VA 22170 NOVEMBER 1987 Palm Beach, FL - facility not yet determined Sat 11/21/87, Sun 11/22/87 Sponsored by: Atari Club of the Palm Beaches Contact: Jim Woodward (305) 736-5532 605 S.W. 1st Court, Boynton Beach, FL 33435 NOVEMBER 1987 San Jose, CA - facility not yet determined For further information contact; Sandi Austin, Atari Corp, 1196 Borregas Ave, Sunnyvale, CA 94086, (408) 745-2012. -- --->Neil Harris @ Atari...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil BIX: neilharris / CIS: 70007,1135 / Delphi: NEILHARRIS / GENIE: NHARRIS WELL: neil / Atari Corp. BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 16:55:02 GMT From: shebs@utah-cs.arpa (Stanley Shebs) Subject: Re: LISP for the ST To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu In article <8703060629.AA10665@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> FORSTER@cs.umass.edu (David Forster) writes: >Benchmarks showed that it [Cambridge Lisp] ran 20 times slower than >equivalent products on the Mac, BUT the Cambridge LISP was being interpreted, >and the Mac stuff was running compiled. If the Cambridge code had been >compiled, it would probably have performed better, but 20 times better? >I don't think so. Actually, that's a common rule of thumb for compiled vs interpreted Lisps, though the number varies from 10 times faster to maybe 100 times faster for compilation. Depends on smartness of compiler and smartness of interpreter, and also on the dialect... >Why on earth they didn't go that extra step to define structures I do not >know. Surely it's not that much work? It should be possible to define >structs based on arrays without very much work (and/or based on lists, but >access to arrays will be faster). Defstructs based on some other object (say arrays) are easy to do, just a hairy macro. Charniak/Riesbeck/McDermott's AI Programming Techniques (published by Lawrence Erlbaum Associates) discusses the details of writing one. A fly in the ointment tho - no way to distinguish an array created via defstruct from one created by make-array. So serious Lisps have an additional datatype that is like an array but is not arrayp. The people that built Cambridge Lisp care a little about semantics, so I imagine they rejected the easy but unsafe way to do defstructs, and didn't want the overhead associated with a completely new datatype either. >Does anyone out there have information about other LISP's? Sandra Loosemore has been working on a full-scale CL for the ST, but she's been slacking off lately. The compiler is reasonably good... Also, we've been putting together a PSL successor at Utah designed to be efficient, portable, modular, etc. It prints out "hello world" now, but not much more! Anyway, since I've just acquired an ST, a port to it will no doubt happen in the near future (we already have 68K code generation)... >Thanks, David Forster stan shebs shebs@cs.utah.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 06:23:12 GMT From: braner@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (braner) Subject: How do you adjust floppy drive speed? To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu [] I just got a PD speed checking program (from Snail Mail), and turned it loose on my drive. It reads 304.0 msec. Is that out of range? If it is, can somebody tell me how one adjusts the speed? (I have a 1040STf with the standard internal double-sided drive.) Thanks! - Moshe Braner ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 13:54:56 GMT From: ihnp4!houxm!homxb!genesis!odyssey!jcs@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (j.c.schwebel) Subject: Screendumps (printer driver) FINALLY!! for LQ-800 To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu After many pleas to the net, I finally got screen dumps to work on my 24 pin Epson LQ-800 Printer, despite my complete ignorance about printer drivers and refusal to write a line of code for my Atari 1040. This was done by using the latest issue of Start Magazine and Disk which has a program by Tom Hudson to generate printer drivers. Using this program one can generate drivers to give many different formats of screen dumps. The problem with using the standard Epson driver with the LQ-800, I think, is that it puts the printer in single density graphics mode but only spaces about 1/3 (60/180)? of a line at the end of each line. I will post a driver to whomever wants it as soon as I figure out a good standard format. There are tradeoffs between number of pins used, size, quality, and speed of printing. It probably would be more valuable to post the driver creator program; I'll have to check if this is PD. Thank You Tom Hudson! ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 21:07:40 GMT From: ucsdhub!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!ncrcae!usceast!tech@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu (Bill Wood) Subject: Standards To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu First, let me say 'Thank you' for the kind response to my previous posting, and thank you to Neil and Alex for the news. Since the St/020 is still in the design phase and you haven't had a chance to 'finish' the operating system, I would like to propose that it might be time for all of us to have a frank discussion about what we want VS what is commercially wise. First, Please set some more and better standards for the current line of computers. Ex) Please define the printer driver standard. No one knows the 'proper' way to interface a different printer. We can't all afford a laser printer yet since, in my case at least, I have to save for the new St/020. I might be able to swing a 24 pin dot matrix though. But what to do? You might also think about defining a standard for a set of bounds checking registers, something to go next to the blitter that would allow memory protection in a multi-tasking environment. I use the MTC-Shell alot and it is coming along fine as a 'user' environment, however as a 'programmers' environment it fails because it can't guarantee the integrity of the memory image. I would also like to see a new trap defined that would perform all of the standard UNIX system calls on the ST/520. It would be silly to not be able to compile and run non graphic applications on both of these systems transparently. Since it is obvious that you will have to make some changes to the 520 to use it as a 'genius graphic terminal' (who thought that up?) thinking ahead at this time would be wonderful. Concerning the ST/020, THANKS FOR THE GOOD NEWS!!!!! but please don't be so short sighted as to believe that we may only want ONE of them. With two DMA channels and a well written kernel a 128 node hypercube is possible with nothing but cable and off the shelf parts. Think about it! The possibilities are most amazing! Also, please define how we do the same with the 520. I would love to use a SECOND 520 as a text formatter and print buffer. The CPU is down around $300.00 but without a DMA standard and a new device driver what's the point? I have been waiting patiently for the DMA standard to develop. I think it is one of the more exciting aspects of the ST line. I would really LOVE to perform a remote login to a second unit on the DMA buss and have it perform useful work for me. A 520 would be ideal for some jobs that the ST020 would be wasted on and it would seem that a cable, a STANDARD, and a rom are all that I need to do this today. I am willing to do the cable and would be willing to work on the rom but YOU guys have to set the standard. Well this is long winded so I will stop. Thanks for the good news about the product line and please do not consider the above to be demands. It just seems that what the ST line of computers needs more than anything else right now is an integrated set of specifications for a true parallel multiprocessing environment. Here's hoping you will pause to reflect on just how POWERFUL this system could be with the right interconnection scheme. Have a good one! Bill Wood (!usceast!tech) ------------------------------ End of Info-Atari16 Digest ************************** -------