Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watnot!watmath!clyde!cbatt!ihnp4!ptsfa!lll-lcc!styx!ames!ucbcad!ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc6!loral!dml
From: dml@loral.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers,talk.origins,sci.bio
Subject: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy
Message-ID: <1371@loral.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 13-Feb-87 13:50:17 EST
Article-I.D.: loral.1371
Posted: Fri Feb 13 13:50:17 1987
Date-Received: Sun, 15-Feb-87 05:17:16 EST
References: <1151@husc2.UUCP> <305@netxcom.UUCP> <1170@husc2.UUCP>
Reply-To: dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis)
Organization: Loral Instrumentation, San Diego
Lines: 54
Keywords: predation (absence of), aggression (selection for)
Xref: utgpu rec.arts.sf-lovers:1364 talk.origins:260 sci.bio:123
Summary: There's another factor involved

In article <1170@husc2.UUCP> chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
>In article <305@netxcom.UUCP>, ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes:
>> In article <1151@husc2.UUCP> chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
>>>	In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among other things)
>>>a world where predators do not exist (except in the deep ocean). I'll skip
>>>his theory of how evolution could work out to forbid predation

  But that's the whole point! The factor that prevents predation also prevents
ANY form of aggression.

>>>       ... something more clear-cut:  he says that in the absence of
>>>predation, aggression will not exist. This has been shown to be false: some
>>>herbivores are among the meanest creatures around.

  That's not what he says a-tall. Listen very carefully:

  James P. Hogan postulates a physical, anatomical rationale for the
absence of aggression in Minervan animals. Terrestrial animals rely on the
primary circulatory system (bloodstream) to dispose of metabolic wastes.
Hogan's Minervan animals evolved a secondary circulatory system for this
purpose. Since the contents of this secondary system were toxic, no predator
could survive an attempt to make a meal of any animal having this system.
Over millions of years, the contents of this waste-disposal system became
more and more concentrated. Predatory species, which had barely gotten
started anyway, vanished entirely.

  The secondary system also inhibited non-predatory aggression. Any injury,
however slight, carried a major risk of contaminating the primary circulatory
system with concentrated wastes. Physical aggression was selected out, since
even minor injuries would kill BOTH parties. Bone and horn guard plates were
formed over joints and other vulnerable areas to minimize the chances of
accidental injury.

  Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how thoroughly it colors
our outlook?) world of predators and aggressors, can't see any way for these
critters to resolve the problem of there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5-
animals-want-to-use-them, but that may be more a matter of limited vision
than fundamental impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical
violence is Right Out.

-------------------------------
          Dave Lewis    Loral Instrumentation   San Diego

  hp-sdd --\     ihnp4 --\
  sdcrdcf --\      bang --\   kontron -\
  csndvax ---\   calmasd -->-->!crash --\
  celerity --->------->!sdcsvax!sdcc3 --->--->!loral!dml  (uucp)
  dcdwest ---/                 gould9 --/

 "You're mad!"
 "Am I? I've handed the power of life and death back to the people who do
  the living and dying."

-------------------------------