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From: chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers,talk.origins,sci.bio
Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy
Message-ID: <1187@husc2.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 20-Feb-87 02:03:48 EST
Article-I.D.: husc2.1187
Posted: Fri Feb 20 02:03:48 1987
Date-Received: Sat, 21-Feb-87 06:14:25 EST
References: <1151@husc2.UUCP> <305@netxcom.UUCP> <1170@husc2.UUCP> <1371@loral.UUCP>
Organization: Harvard Univ. Science Ctr., Cambridge, MA
Lines: 59
Keywords: predation (absence of), aggression (selection for)
Summary: That doesn't quite work.
Xref: watmath rec.arts.sf-lovers:1636 talk.origins:646 sci.bio:130

In article <1371@loral.UUCP>, dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
> In article <1170@husc2.UUCP> chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
> >In article <305@netxcom.UUCP>, ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes:
> >> In article <1151@husc2.UUCP> chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
> >>>	In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among other things)
> >>>a world where predators do not exist (except in the deep ocean). I'll skip
> >>>his theory of how evolution could work out to forbid predation
> 
>   But that's the whole point! The factor that prevents predation also prevents
> ANY form of aggression.

	Not ANY form of aggression.  See below.

>   That's not what he says a-tall. Listen very carefully:
> 
>   James P. Hogan postulates a physical, anatomical rationale for the
> absence of aggression in Minervan animals. Terrestrial animals rely on the
> primary circulatory system (bloodstream) to dispose of metabolic wastes.
> Hogan's Minervan animals evolved a secondary circulatory system for this
> purpose. Since the contents of this secondary system were toxic, no predator
> could survive an attempt to make a meal of any animal having this system.
> Over millions of years, the contents of this waste-disposal system became
> more and more concentrated. Predatory species, which had barely gotten
> started anyway, vanished entirely.
> 
>   The secondary system also inhibited non-predatory aggression. Any injury,
> however slight, carried a major risk of contaminating the primary circulatory
> system with concentrated wastes. Physical aggression was selected out, since
> even minor injuries would kill BOTH parties. Bone and horn guard plates were
> formed over joints and other vulnerable areas to minimize the chances of
> accidental injury.

	While this rules out hand-to-hand (or the equivalent) combat, it does
not do ANYTHING to rule out aggression by means of projectile weapons (no
chance of the aggressor injuring itself by making such an attack, although
normal chances of the aggressor being injured by return fire from the victim)
or treachery (put poison in competitor's food, release poison gas when upwind
of a victim, arrange for the victim to have an accident, etc.; no more risky
to aggressor than projectile combat).

>   Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how thoroughly it colors
> our outlook?) world of predators and aggressors, can't see any way for these
> critters to resolve the problem of there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5-
> animals-want-to-use-them, but that may be more a matter of limited vision
> than fundamental impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical
> violence is Right Out.

	Well, cooperation and self-imposed limits on reproduction are
possible, but it seems that as long as aggression is possible most life-forms
will develop it.  I will admit that Hogan's model of Minervan life makes
aggression more difficult, but not impossible.

-- 
	-- Lucius Chiaraviglio
	   lucius@tardis.harvard.edu
	   seismo!tardis.harvard.edu!lucius

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