Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!rutgers!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!ucbvax!CLARKU.BITNET!DHASKIN From: DHASKIN@CLARKU.BITNET (Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: INFO-VAX, VAX-KIDS, NET-KIDS? Message-ID: <8704261222.AA03533@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Fri, 24-Apr-87 14:24:00 EDT Article-I.D.: ucbvax.8704261222.AA03533 Posted: Fri Apr 24 14:24:00 1987 Date-Received: Sun, 26-Apr-87 23:30:56 EDT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Distribution: world Organization: The ARPA Internet Lines: 231 Hi gang - This is a much-condensed transcript of a discussion that was going on at JNET-L on Bitnet which should rightly have been here. I think this issue has come up before, so I thought the list might be interested. Any thoughts? Denis P.S. The beginning's pretty boring, I just wanted to give the full story; it gets more interesting down around the message from WILLIAMSV@VCUVAX. And apologies for the length; this is about 230 lines. [ Begin condensation ]--------------------------------------------------- From: Timothy Stephen Any other tips, warnings and recommendations about using DCL to manage conversational access to remote services on Bitnet would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, no one associated with my project has much experience with Vax systems and prior to this, none with DCL. Lack of equipment has forced us to develop the program on a microvax that doesn't have Bitnet connection or JNET, so we are flying blind and by the seats of our pants. ========================================================================= From: "Jim Gerland (Postmaster)" Along these lines, there is a LISTSERV list called VMKIDS-L@UBVM and IRISHVM started by Nick Laflamme at Notre Dame which allows VM users to pose questions to each other without fear of asking a 'stupid' question. (Theonly stupid is one that isn't asked). I'm wondering if we could use a list for VMS people to do this same thing (VMSKID-L perhaps?). ========================================================================= From: "Mr. Peter Flass" [ Pete requoted the above message ] I think this is an excellent suggestion. The more ways we have to share information the better off we will all be. ========================================================================= From: magill@eniac.seas.upenn.edu [ and again requoted ] It sounds like you want to subscribe to "info-vax" on the ARPANET side. [... info about subscribing to INFO-VAX... ] ========================================================================= From: System Manager The INFO-VAX list IS available via listserver on BITNET. Try sending the following message (I'm assuming you've got jnet :-) ) $ SEND LISTSERV@MARIST "subscribe info-vax Full Name" You will then receive LOTS of mail, some useful and some not so useful (there is a vast number of different peripherals out there...) [...] The ARPAnet address will ensure the widest distribution of your question(s). ========================================================================= From: "Kevin Cole, Gallaudet U., Washington, DC" As for a VAX discussion group on BITNET (rather than ARPA) I'm all for it. ========================================================================= From: WILLIAMSV@VCUVAX [... requoted from above again...] The file LISTSERV GROUPS from NICSERVE@BITNIC lists BITNET redistribution list name for ARPA list as well as listing BITNET distribution lists. For the ARPA VAX-INFO list it mentions the following: [.. quote from LISTSERV GROUPS...] Personal warning: This is a very hot mailing list. We have received up to 50 mail messages in one day on it. I also think that a separate BITNET-side VAX-INFORMATION distribution list would be beneficial. ========================================================================= From: "Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services" [... requoted Cole and Gerland...] Please not! Let's stick with INFO-VAX from arpa and the bitnet redistribution please... the larger the community participating, the better the information will be (and having input from non-academic sites has been very useful). I think it is much more beneficial. The possibility of splitting the list into two (maybe like VAX-WIZ and VAX-KID) sounds intriguing but not very possible; how does one determine where to send a question? What's duck soup to one VAXer can be mystical manna to another. Yes, INFO-VAX@SRI-KL.ARPA is 'hot', and I regularly slog thru 20-40 new messages every morning. But it is absolutely worth it. ========================================================================= From: "Greg Hamm, Molecular Biology Computing Lab" >From: "Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services" > >> From: "Kevin Cole, Gallaudet U., Washington, DC" >> As for a VAX discussion group on BITNET (rather than ARPA) I'm all for it. >AND >> From: "Jim Gerland (Postmaster)" >> I'm wondering if we could use a list for VMS people to do this same thing >> (VMSKID-L perhaps?). Let's here what you think. > > >Please not! Let's stick with INFO-VAX from arpa and the bitnet redistribution >please... the larger the community participating, the better the information .. >Yes, INFO-VAX@SRI-KL.ARPA is 'hot', and I regularly slog thru 20-40 new >messages every morning. But it is absolutely worth it. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I certainly don't want to read yet another list. And, by and large, "stupid" questions have been well tolerated and given helpful answers on INFO-VAX (even the nth time they're asked). I find the INFO-VAX community *extremely* helpful and would hate to see it split. ========================================================================= From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" Another nice list to have would be NETKIDS along the lines of INFONETS... -DH ========================================================================= From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" The problem with INFO-VAX is it is *not* for naive users... The discussion tends to be more on the technical and/or hardware side. I think that VMSKIDS is a fine idea. -DH ========================================================================= From: "Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services" > From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" > > The problem with INFO-VAX is it is *not* for naive users... The discussion > tends to be more on the technical and/or hardware side. I think that > VMSKIDS is a fine idea. Aha. This is enlarging the issue a bit. As someone mentioned earlier, INFO-VAX listeners are more than willing to assist in basic questions, even again and again every couple of months. I do see your point that a naive user would not want to slog through messages about process parameters and what MPW_LOLIMIT should be on a node named Fred [ I am not going to even get into the educational aspect of seeing things that one *might* not necessarily understand now, but... ]. What bothers me more, though, is the similarity this has to problems that many Information Systems departments have to deal with, that is, a large majority of users, especially novices, if given the choice between (a) looking up how to do something in a manual or on on-line help, or (b) walking across the room or down the hall or across campus to ask a 'guru', will usually do (b). Which is fine if that is the person's designated role, but quite often it is not, and that person is prevented from doing what they are hired to because they are interrupted every 10-15 minutes to find the missing semicolon in a Pascal routine (okay, I admit it, this happens to me. And I am being biased, as I spent several years in an environment where there *were* no gurus and no INFO-VAX and if you wanted to knonw something you read the manual and poked around the system). I know there may be flames about 'management philosophy' and the like, but my point is that if you put up a list and say here, this list is specifically for you to ask all the 'simple' questions you were too timid to put on INFO-VAX, please think about (a) the traffic you might generate and (b) who's going to participate? I consider myself a relative expert with VMS, and I would not participate... I wouldn't benefit. And if other VMS experts feel the same way, who on the list will be providing the expertise (can you see Jerry on that list?). Or do you envision beginning to middle users participating? I do see your desire for a forum for novice VAXers, but I would encourage people to look in-house for such assistance. Hmm. This response makes me sound like a jerk, so feel free to flame. I understand the need for dissemination of information, but please think about how useful it would or wouldn't be. Of course, this may all be moot if the list goes up and noone subscribes ("what if they gave a war and nobody came?"). TGIF (okay, almost) ========================================================================= From: Ned Freed I will have to agree with Denis Haskin about who will read a "VAX novice" list. Speaking as a VMS wizard, you wouldn't find me anywhere near such a list! I spend a good percentage of my time already answering the novice questions our local users have (its not a problem for me since I consider it to be part of my job) and I can't spare the time to handle additional novice requests. This is the reason I rarely reply to novice info-vax questions, even when I know the answer. My personal interest in info-vax is as a place to post and read articles about technically sophisticated issues. The traffic in novice Q/A is fine by me, but I don't think a separate novice group would ever work. Ned ========================================================================= From: Sid Penstone I think that it is still worth while for "naive"users to read the INFO-VAX on ARPA; there are questions and answers at all levels, and enough patient VMS gurus to answer the simple questions. The user base is VERY broad. There are also useful DCL hints from experienced managers. ========================================================================= From: "Ghost in the (Turing) Machine" I can definitely understand the sentiment of some people on the INFO-VAX list when they say that they have other work to do and would not be interested in churning through the mail on a Novices list. On the other hand, I have such things in my blood (even though I no longer have that as my primary function at work) and I would not mind at all. Perhaps, as an alternative, I might suggest a Net-Novices mailing-list. It might serve for novices in all respects to pose questions to each other and to those willing to help. I surely can't volunteer either a new LISTSERV at my site (and therefore I cannot offer to chair the list), but I would be willing to help out as I can. Chris Petersen ========================================================================= From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" Re: what if they gave a war and nobody came? Good point. I suspect that most novice VMS users don't know enough about BITNET &c. to make this too feasible... :-) -DH