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From: biep@klipper.UUCP
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.software.b
Subject: Re: Bogus loud warning messages
Message-ID: <794@klipper.cs.vu.nl>
Date: Fri, 5-Jun-87 06:46:40 EDT
Article-I.D.: klipper.794
Posted: Fri Jun  5 06:46:40 1987
Date-Received: Mon, 8-Jun-87 05:36:37 EDT
References: <1216@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> <1953@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> <778@klipper.cs.vu.nl> <4665@sdcrdcf.UUCP>
Reply-To: biep@cs.vu.nl (J. A. "Biep" Durieux)
Organization: VU Informatica, Amsterdam
Lines: 73
Keywords: sorry
Xref: utgpu news.misc:463 news.software.b:628
Summary: a long-winded way to apologize

Long!

In article <4665@sdcrdcf.UUCP> lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Larry Wall) writes:
>Pnews (which I wrote) says:
> This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire
> civilized world.  You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of
> dollars to send everywhere.  Please be sure you know what you are doing.

In article <778@klipper.cs.vu.nl> biep@cs.vu.nl (that's me) writes:
>The hard part is, that this message actually defines the civilized world
>to be those parts of the world where usenet is received. As a joke, that
>might be funny,

Larry:
>But it IS a joke.  I guess I made the mistake of thinking we speak a language
>where jokes don't have to be declared.

OK, sorry - I missed it.

=== Hereunder follow some miscellaneous comments on Larries posting ===

Larry:
>Allowing free speech across your borders is not a bad measure of civilization,
>as such things go. (...)  You've got to have some
>word to distinguish that portion of the world that thinks of itself as the
>leader in social and economic development, whether it is or not.

But what have technology and economic development to do with *civilisation*?
There may be a correlation, but I guess if there is from some point on it
will be a negative one. About a word: what about "western(ized)" ?

Me:
>and insulting to the rest of the world.

Larry:
>But how can they be insulted if they haven't read it?
>I call this a 2nd order offense.

"Insult" and "offense" are not the same thing. To offend someone depends on
the other, and indeed, that implies the other must have felt it that way.
To insult someone requires intent, and doesn't require the other to remark
it. Insulting someone may offend whoever hears/reads/etc. the insult (please
note that I only spoke about "...sounds insulting", not about any actual
insult). If I insult you, you are insulted by me. Whether you heard it or
not.

Larry:
>Are we so civilized?  I dunno.  I want you to know that I'm not offended,
>and I suppose that's a mark of civilization.

Thanks. I indeed think that shows civilisation.

Larry:
>I take your article as one
>data point to fit the curve of my life to.  You think I should hogtie my
>language?  You think I should breast beat myself for being a Have rather
>than a Havenot?  Maybe I should.  But I've got other data points, and 
>a Higher Mathematician.

I don't know what "to hogtie" means, perhaps "to restrict", or "to clean up",
but about the other things: no, not for me, at least. Such things always are
to be decided in close contact with our common H. Mathian.

The only reason I reacted was that I got the impression most people seemed
to take for granted that our western culture was the only civilised one.
I think my English wasn't good enough to have seen the obviousness of the
joke.

Besides: If I offended you, you would never add all those bells and whistles
I asked for to rn. That alone would be more than enough reason not to do so :-)
-- 
						Biep.  (biep@cs.vu.nl via mcvax)
			My F-key has autorepeat