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Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!ptsfa!ames!cit-vax!oberon!sdcrdcf!lwall
From: lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP
Newsgroups: news.misc,news.software.b
Subject: Re: Bogus loud warning messages
Message-ID: <4665@sdcrdcf.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 3-Jun-87 13:28:41 EDT
Article-I.D.: sdcrdcf.4665
Posted: Wed Jun  3 13:28:41 1987
Date-Received: Sat, 6-Jun-87 05:30:02 EDT
References: <1216@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> <1953@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> <778@klipper.cs.vu.nl>
Reply-To: lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Larry Wall)
Organization: Unisys - System Development Group, Santa Monica
Lines: 74
Xref: utgpu news.misc:443 news.software.b:620

Pnews (which I wrote) says:
>> This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire
>> civilized world.  You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of
>> dollars to send everywhere.  Please be sure you know what you are doing.

In article <778@klipper.cs.vu.nl> biep@cs.vu.nl (J. A. "Biep" Durieux) writes:
>The hard part is, that this message actually defines the civilized world
>to be those parts of the world where usenet is received. As a joke, that
>might be funny,

But it IS a joke.  I guess I made the mistake of thinking we speak a language
where jokes don't have to be declared.

>but in this way it sounds both boasting (are we really so civilized?)

Allowing free speech across your borders is not a bad measure of civilization,
as such things go.

Now, part of what's going on here is that the descriptive word "civilized" is
starting to mean "good" in the same way that the descriptive word "villain"
has come to mean "bad guy".  This is a nasty thing to happen to a word, but
it does, and there's not much you or I can do to prevent it.  When I say
"civilized", I don't mean "good", I mean "civilized".  You've got to have some
word to distinguish that portion of the world that thinks of itself as the
leader in social and economic development, whether it is or not.  I've not
run into a lot of people who misunderstand me when I say "civilized".  If
I do run into a lot of them, then the rational thing to do is to abandon the
use of the word in its old meaning and say "Sigh!" yet again.  But I won't
give up a word until it leads to widespread confusion.

Likewise, my brother is retarded.  That doesn't mean he's bad.  Some people
get upset when I say my brother is retarded.  But not enough of them for me
to substitute a less apt and more ponderous phrase for a perfectly meaningful
word.

>and insulting to the rest of the world.

But how can they be insulted if they haven't read it?  I call this a 2nd order
offense.  More later.

>I am sure the author hadn't meant it that way, but since I read it I have
>been waiting for someone to say we shouldn't say such things. I am
>disappointed nobody did (but perhaps they were all waiting like me :-))

Not everyone feels that they should be insulted in behalf of others.  I try
to make a careful distinction between 1st order and 2nd order offenses.  I have
to, or I'd never get anything done at my church, where I coordinate the music
program.  Typical conversation, slightly abridged and transmogrified:

Me:	You wanted to see me about something?
They:	Yes, I'm afraid that the purple tie with yellow polka-dots the pianist
	wore last Sunday may have offended some people.
Me:	Were you offended by it?
They:	Well, no, not really.  But I'm afraid someone might have been
	distracted from their worship by it.
Me:	Do you know of anyone in particular who was offended?
They:	Well, no, but shouldn't we be as careful as possible just in case it
	makes someone feel uncomfortable?
Me:	You think we should enforce cultural homogeneity in our congregation
	just to keep people as comfortable as possible?  Whatever happened
	to "preach the gospel to every creature"?

etc.

Are we so civilized?  I dunno.  I want you to know that I'm not offended,
and I suppose that's a mark of civilization.  I take your article as one
data point to fit the curve of my life to.  You think I should hogtie my
language?  You think I should breast beat myself for being a Have rather
than a Havenot?  Maybe I should.  But I've got other data points, and 
a Higher Mathematician.

Peace,
Larry Wall
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!lwall