Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!seismo!gatech!hao!oddjob!gargoyle!ihnp4!cbosgd!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery From: allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) Newsgroups: news.groups,news.misc,news.stargate,news.sysadmin,news.admin Subject: Re: Spaf's 2nd Reply to EndOfSourcesList+AnnouncementOfNetOmbudsman Message-ID: <2854@ncoast.UUCP> Date: Sat, 11-Jul-87 00:51:35 EDT Article-I.D.: ncoast.2854 Posted: Sat Jul 11 00:51:35 1987 Date-Received: Sun, 12-Jul-87 15:55:45 EDT References: <266@brandx.rutgers.edu> <16003@gatech.gatech.edu> <286@brandx.rutgers.edu> Reply-To: allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) Followup-To: news.groups Organization: Cleveland Public Access UN*X, Cleveland, Oh Lines: 123 Xref: mnetor news.groups:1226 news.misc:748 news.stargate:250 news.sysadmin:301 news.admin:684 In this, which I firmly intend to be my last word on the subject for reasons to be detailed herein, I will attempt yet again to respond to Mr. Webber's postings. This has been going on between us since he sent his "ombudsman" proposal to the moderators list. Therefore, point-by-point: As quoted from <286@brandx.rutgers.edu> by webber@brandx.rutgers.edu (Webber): +--------------- | 3) I believe that the alternative backbone solution simply | solved the problem by going back to the beginning of time | when the net was new and young. Once they grow to a size | comparable to the current set up, they will be faced with | exactly the same problems as the current backbone (and so | far I have heard no indication that they are planning any | better alternatives once they get there). +--------------- You obviously don't understand the reason for the alternate backbone; it's not to solve load problems, it's to let the Bob Webbers of the world make their own newsgroups in their own ways without forcing them down the throats (or news systems) of people who prefer the current system. In other words, you can remodel your house all you like, but try to remodel mine without _my_ permission and I'll break your neck for you. Which goes for not only the moderators and the backbone, but most of the rest of the net as well. You didn't leave any room for discussion about moderation, you simply declared it to be wrong. What if people WANT moderated newsgroups? From what I've seen from you, any such must be considered deluded or ignorant by your standards. At least the current backbone will listen to complaints, whereas you start shouting your treasured beliefs louder and louder in hopes that you can drown out the rest of us. I, for one, prefer Gene Spafford to _that_ any day. +--------------- | 4) I believe that the sources groups are key in this discussion | because, of all the moderated groups, the sources groups are | special in that they have: a large constituency, no unmoderated | stream was set aside as alternatives (most moderated groups | also have alternative unmoderated streams nearby), and they | were converted without following the procedures that were followed | in the conversion of other groups. +--------------- Yes, just as you proposed to map comp.binaries.all to talk.bizarre. I have yet to see you show any "moral superiority" over the current backbone. Am I to believe that you are right because you are the One Bob Webber and all others are not and are therefore absolutely wrong? What you proposed with comp.binaries.all is NO different than what you accuse the backbone of doing. +--------------- | 5) I believe that no machine can or should be forced to carry anything | it doesn't want to, but that the machine must develop ways of | determining what it does and doesn't want. As long as we rely | on ``gentlemans's agreements'' there will always be disputes | over proper and improper use of the net. +--------------- You also believe that every machine on the net should be forced to carry drivel in order to receive sources. Either that, or you never subscribed to net.sources while it was around. I _did_, which is why I take such great pleasure in blasting non-source to pieces when it arrives in the sources-misc mailbox. Again, it just doesn't wash. Don't put on airs of moral superiority and then prove that you're not one whit different from anyone else. +--------------- | 6) I believe that in the past I have been responsive to comments | from the backbone, both by responding via mail and actually | acting differently based on what seemed to make sense, such | as hao!wood's presentation of why the mailing list idea was | inconsistant current customs in the use of computer mail. +--------------- I'll remember that next time I read 90K of ~/Mail/moderators, most of which is Bob Webber screaming until he's blue in the face that he's right and therefore the rest of us are all by definition and mandate of God absolutely wrong. Let's reduce this discussion to lowest terms: BOB WEBBER HATES MODERATED NEWSGROUPS. This is freely admitted by Mr. Webber and is in the foreground of every "discussion" he has made on this topic. Now, examining the record, we can find that, based on this, most of his complaints about our responses are not related to the basic at all; except that he also hates the backbone as they are the force behind those evil soul-robbers, the moderators. This causes me to suspect that Mr. Webber is running out of arguments. Again, I give my answer to his complaint about moderated source groups: "I have proof that the majority of the net prefers moderated sources news- groups. If you want an unmoderated source group, join the alternate backbone and subscribve to alt.sources." And again, his response from above: +--------------- | 3) I believe that the alternative backbone solution simply | solved the problem by going back to the beginning of time | when the net was new and young. Once they grow to a size | comparable to the current set up, they will be faced with | exactly the same problems as the current backbone (and so | far I have heard no indication that they are planning any | better alternatives once they get there). +--------------- Somehow, I don't think he responded to what I said. (And then he has the nerve to berate Spaf for the same thing? "Physician, heal thyself".) The general tone of the once-raging discussion in the moderators' list was one of "I want to slash-destroy-kill moderated groups, and I don't give a d*mn what anyone else thinks about it". Again, I have documented proof (insofar as an opinion can be "proved") of this for those who are interested. In the meantime, I dropped out of the discussion in the moderators' list, and I am dropping out of this one; I suspect Mr. Webber likes to stir up hornets' nests. -- [Copyright 1987 Brandon S. Allbery, all rights reserved] \ ncoast 216 781 6201 [Redistributable only if redistribution is subsequently permitted.] \ 2400 bd. Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc and comp.binaries.ibm.pc {{ames,harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,{well,ihnp4}!hoptoad,cbosgd}!ncoast!allbery <>