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From: bcase@apple.UUCP (Brian Case)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The 360 was a design landmark  (360 vs vax)
Message-ID: <3326@apple.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 26-Aug-87 14:32:40 EDT
Article-I.D.: apple.3326
Posted: Wed Aug 26 14:32:40 1987
Date-Received: Sat, 29-Aug-87 06:13:28 EDT
References: <855@tjalk.cs.vu.nl> <2683@hoptoad.uucp>
Reply-To: bcase@apple.UUCP (Brian Case)
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, USA
Lines: 36

In article <418@astroatc.UUCP> johnw@astroatc.UUCP (John F. Wardale) writes:
>THE *MAJOR*
>reason the ancint 360/370 stuff is still alive, while DEC's vaxen
>are falling by the wayside (despite DES's best efforts) is that
>360's *CAN* be pipelined (tho not necessarily real easily) and
>VAXen can't!  

I beg your pardon, but your statement is quite a bit stronger than reality
will permit.  I, for one, believe that the high-end VAXs are quite
pipelined.

>The 1st byte of each 370 instruction tells you the length of the
>instruction!

You have pin-pointed one of the VAX's problems.  This does not prevent,
absolutely, pipelining.

>Top 370 designes top out at 20 MIPS (or is it more now?)
>Top Vax design is maybe 8 MIPS.

At what cost?  Those 20 MIPS machines are CONSIDERably more expensive and
use technology to which DEC doesn't have access (I suspect), even though
they might be able to get at it if they really wanted to do so (Fuji
is now selling the RAM chips on the open market, I think).  Compare
a board from an Amdahl machine to a board from an 8700.  The Amdahl uses
Fuji ECL with cooling towers 1-1/2 inches high (am I close on this dimension?).
There are probably other important differences.

>The point is that despite moderate-size misteakes, the 360 is a
>relatively OK design, and was fanaminally excellent for the early
>1960's!!!!!!!!

To me, the 360 (370 or whatever) and the VAX are equally OK for their
respective times, but definitely not OK for these times.

Please, let's not get hysterical, or, worse, mispellical.