Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!rutgers!labrea!decwrl!pyramid!prls!gert From: gert@prls.UUCP (Gert Slavenburg) Newsgroups: comp.os.minix,comp.sys.atari.st Subject: X-Windows for the Atari ST : let's DO IT. Message-ID: <6083@prls.UUCP> Date: Tue, 8-Sep-87 19:33:30 EDT Article-I.D.: prls.6083 Posted: Tue Sep 8 19:33:30 1987 Date-Received: Thu, 10-Sep-87 01:45:43 EDT Reply-To: gert@prls.UUCP (Gert Slavenburg) Organization: Philips Research Labs, Sunnyvale, California Lines: 83 Keywords: X-Windows Minix MIT Athena GEM Atari-ST Summary: DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE FROM GEM Xref: mnetor comp.os.minix:1588 comp.sys.atari.st:5067 From the reactions that were published on the net OR directly mailed to me, it is clear that there is a lot of interest in X-windows on the Atari-ST. To make this discussion a little clearer to outsiders, let me explain (my limited understanding) of what X-windows is : + X-windows is a PROTOCOL that defines how a CLIENT program that wants to manipulate windows on a screen should talk to a SERVER program on some IPC (Inter Process Communication) link in order to do output and receive mouse and keyboard events. + An X-window installation involves writing a SERVER for that machine that will implement this protocol onto the specific hard- ware (notably bitmap display and mouse/keyboard) of the target as well as porting a number of CLIENT programs that are indepen- dent of the hardware, but often depend strongly on Unix support. Also, in the case of the Atari ST, there are (as yet) no networking standards, let alone a distributed IPC standard. Hence we either need to develop a standard for the distributed client/server case or limit ourselves to running client and server on a single ST. My personal goals in getting X-windows going are : 1) I have written one major GEM program using windows/mouse/keyboard etc. according to GEM rules. From this I learned that programs with good user interfaces depend SO STRONGLY on GEM that they are very difficult to port to other environments. The next time I write a large (I'm talking 500k source here) appli- cation, I want it to run on VAXes, SUN's, Atari's, VAXstations, etc. 2) Atari and Digital Research seem to be non talking (Neil : correct me if I'm wrong !). Which means that I own a machine, the manufacturer of which will not (and cannot) maintain its Operating System in the future. They only have a binary license ! If we can port X-windows on top of Minix on the Atari-ST, we will have a state of the art, multitasking, multi window package, ALL SOURCE OF WHICH IS AVAILABLE TO ANYONE AT (ALMOST) NO COST ! Hence, no more dependency on Atari or any other manufacturer. It may also bring our machine to its knees, but I've heard that Minix on the ST is faster than the original release for the PC. So there is hope. Proposal : Minix is currently beta-testing on the ST (I have a copy). The Atari-ST has no networking capabilities, but WHO CARES ! For goal 1 and 2 above, all I care about is running a client and server on one machine. Later, if and when networking hardware for the ST becomes commonplace, we'll put it in ! The implementors of Minix on the ST (Johan Stevenson and others) are interested in getting X-windows (or any other standard) running. They are right now bogged down in the final coding for the real Minix release. But I'm sure they are willing to consult on 'howto' issues. HENCE : VOLUNTEER(S) wanted that have the knowledge and time to work on a non- networking port of X-windows under Minix. I do not have enough knowledge myself, nor enough time. I just act as 'the prophet' and can get serious volunteers in touch with the Minix people, if necessary. What we need is one person making a serious commitment, and willing to allow free dis- tribution of his/her efforts. Any commercial undertaking will not meet my goals and would be contrary to the spirit of both X-windows and Minix. (IDRIS and OS/9 : be warned !) Please comment on the above issues on the net, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Gert Slavenburg PS : I received many reactions to my original posting. I will not answer you, but will attempt to develop some common consensus. Everyone seems to feel that waiting for Minix and for V11 of X-windows is the thing to do. Some people are working on/thinking of working on a port. Mail me to request an archive with all my mail on this topic, if you want to locate people with common interests. LET's work on our DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE from Atari ! Disclaimer : all of the above opinions are entirely my own. And I only repeat rumours anyway, I don't know what I'm talking about.