Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!rutgers!umnd-cs!umn-d-ub!rhealey From: rhealey@umn-d-ub.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sys.tandy Subject: Re: Ldos vs. NeWDOS Message-ID: <24@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> Date: Wed, 2-Sep-87 21:03:01 EDT Article-I.D.: umn-d-ub.24 Posted: Wed Sep 2 21:03:01 1987 Date-Received: Fri, 4-Sep-87 04:49:19 EDT References: <52@nancy.UUCP> <18@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> <7863@shemp.UCLA.EDU> <19@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> <94@stb.UUCP> Reply-To: rhealey@ub.d.umn.edu (Rob Healey) Distribution: world Organization: U. of Minnesota, Duluth - Computing Services Lines: 117 Keywords: Dos War In article <94@stb.UUCP> michael@stb.UUCP (Michael) writes: >But my original complaint was about the syntax of Ldos commands in general. >Things where you say >command filename (option1=X'ABCD') > >and it complains if you don't have the close paren. > >Consider >dump file 5200h 7000h 5200h > >with > >DUMP FILE (START=X'5200',END=X'7000',TRA=X'5200') > Has to do with the user callable command line parser for lazy assembly programmers, actually it does save alot of space in your own code. C provides it's own command line parser so I don't use the system one. My Ldos don't complain about no closing parens tho. Minimal version would be: dump file (s=x'5200',e=x'7000',tra='5200' Still yucky compared with the newdos version. >or compare >copy :0 to :1 > >with > BACKUP :0 :1 - For exact copys, backup $/$:0 :1 to force file by file copys. On LDOS backup is really more of a copy program than simple backup program. A subset of it's copying is "mirror image" or cylinder by cylinder copying. > >Hmm, as I remember Ldos needed 512 bytes (two sectors) because of the >overhead in loading the entire disk input routines with the boot >code. Maybe they trimmed it down since then. > Might be the model 1 version oinked the code, the model 3/4 disk system needs very little code to load in sectors and only needs 256 bytes. >NeWDOS's assumes that sys0/sys will be contiguous from lump 0. How it tells >the disk density I don't remember, but I belive it is customized at backup >or pdrive time for the specified density. > LDOS finds where the directory cylinder is from the boot sector, searches the directory for sys0/sys, actually it's in a known offset of the directory, and loads it in. sys0/sys has the restriction that it must be contained in continuous grans with no fragmentation. Since model 3/4's use double density all the time there is no need to set the density in the boot code. My guess is that "sole" futtsed with the boot code the same way backup or pdrive does on NewDos. >Ah, but the point of minidos is: Any dos command, except copy, format, and >append, load into the sys file overlay area, so a program can load at >5200H (or X'5200') and still use dos. (You can copy files with 'mdcopy'). > LDOS's library commands use 5200h to 5fffh for their load addresses so NewDos get's points in that dept. System calls don't use any area outside of the DOS area tho. How big is the NewDos "Kernal"? The minidos commands must be larger than 256 bytes and the code has to go somewhere. What programs do you use minidos in? For the most part all the model 4 programs allow you to execute a system command from within them. Model 3 Ldos basic does allow use of system library commands via cmd"command". >Well, lets say I wanted 222 files on a disk, but my track size >wasn't big enough for that many. >NeWDOS lets you chose the directory size from 10 sectors to 30 sectors on >any size disk, even if you only have 18 sectors per cylinder. > Hmmm, does it hog two tracks for let's say 22 sectors or does it only use the number of sectors that it has to? >> Ldos requires that all disks be formatted before you try to backup >> onto them. This allows backup to figure out whether or not to >> do a sector by sector copy or a file by file copy. Ldos marks a >> file as being altered since last backup so you can easily see what >> files have been changed and which ones haven't, this shows up in >> the directory display. > >Gee, NeWDOS uses a command line option to determine, and will format a >blank disk for you (why not? The format code loads at the same time, the >data needed is all there). And yes, NeWDOS has a "file modified" flag. > Backup on LDOS is a copying only program so the format code isn't loaded in. They do provide a QFB program which formats and backups at the same time. Backup has alot of switches for backing up by date, modification and whether the file exists on the other disk. >And yes, when you do raw I/O to the disk you do I/O to a sector number, >not a track and sector within track. Looks like they made the sector the key unit on NewDos, one could code a sector to cylinder/sector routine fairly easy but I usually operate with files rather than raw sectors. Interesting concept with the logical sectors and lumps and such. Do they make a model 4 version on NewDos? Might be interesting to play with. I basically bought utilitys that compensate for the DOS, zshell for redirection and pipes is the main one. I tend to use programs I wrote myself with C or assembly so that, combined with zshell, I very rarely need to use any system commands beyond dir, format, and backup. Looks like NewDos really helps out model 1 people more than any other DOS but since I have a model 4 it doesn't help me much. It looks like both of us have found ways to keep using our '80's in a world that's gone IBM blind. MSDOS is a piece of @#$% compared with ANY version of TRS-80 DOS's. If you have anymore interesting tidbit's on NewDos I'd be glad to hear 'em, it sounds like an interesting system. -Rob Healey rhealey@ub.d.umn.edu