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From: ooblick@mit-eddie.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.flame
Subject: Re: Nothing to do with Gun Nuts
Message-ID: <7173@eddie.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 15-Oct-87 08:54:22 EDT
Article-I.D.: eddie.7173
Posted: Thu Oct 15 08:54:22 1987
Date-Received: Sat, 17-Oct-87 12:36:17 EDT
References: <Who> <needs> <'em> <?> <1877@gryphon.CTS.COM> <21282@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Reply-To: ooblick@eddie.MIT.EDU (Mikki Barry)
Distribution: na
Organization: MIT, EE/CS Computer Facilities, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 41

In article <21282@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> jwl@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (James Wilbur Lewis) writes:

>C'mon, Richard, I know that!  That's why I said "distribution" instead
>of just "population density".  In this context, a population density
>figure for an entire country is a meaningless statistic because it doesn't
>reflect "clumping".  What's needed here is a second-order statistic; an
>interesting one might be "percentage of the population living in cities
>with population >100,000".  I make no claims as to what the comparison
>between the UK and USA might reveal; only that the degree of overcrowding
>is an important contributing factor toward violent crime, one which I'm
>willing to bet is more strongly correlated with crime statistics than 
>the presence or absence of gun control laws.  

Population distribution in England is, by American standards, extreme
overcrowding.  There are many population centers > 100,000 that
are divided by district names, thus making the true overcrowding
problem deceptive.  I lived in a city of 2,000.  Maybe 100 of these
2,000 had a back yard.  And of those, none was bigger than 10x20
feet.

I do not believe that population density in the case of the British has
anything to do with the amount of crime reported.  Attitudes and social
outrage at crime are far greater deterrents.  But do not make the mistake
that the Brits don't have guns.  Many have hunting rifles.  And do not
make the mistake that Brits do not have violent crime.  They do, just
on a smaller extent than the US, andthe weapons of choice isnclude
knives and razor blades.

>The only explanations I can come up with would tend to invalidate any
>conlusions based on comparisons between American and British crime rates.  But 
>don't let that stop you; I'll gleefully pounce on whatever lame rationalizations
>the anti-gun faction can come up with! :-)

It is futile to compare any other society with the US, since it is only in
the US where people are so attatched to their handguns and see some
constitutional right in having them.  I would be interested to know how
Mr. Lewis and the other pro-gun types wouldcut down the amount of violentt 
crime coitted d with ha  I agree that attempting to ban them would
be useless given this gun crazed society.  But are there any other solutions?

Mikki Barry