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From: bird@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Walters)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple
Subject: Re dabblers
Message-ID: <2588@ihlpf.ATT.COM>
Date: Sat, 24-Oct-87 22:42:41 EST
Article-I.D.: ihlpf.2588
Posted: Sat Oct 24 22:42:41 1987
Date-Received: Tue, 27-Oct-87 02:49:47 EST
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Naperville, Illinois
Lines: 147
Keywords: APDA

I would like to address some of the points raised by the following:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

>The reason for the cheap price for Merlin 8/16 is that APW/ORCA is
>already the defacto standard development system for the Apple IIgs.

Merlin sold for $64 when I first bought it as plain old Merlin.
Merlin Pro was $99. The move to $125 seems in line with history and
in no way addresss ORCA/M as a competitor. In addition, Merlin
provides an assembler that works for both ProDOS and DOS 3.3 which
can be viewed as "double for your money."

>Merlin 8/16 is basically a slightly modified version of Merlin
>Pro.  It uses non-standard OP codes (like LDAL and STAL)

If the latest Merlin doesn't use the syntax of ORCA/M, then I'm
disappointed since that syntax seems extenable to the 32 bit
version of the 6502. In the past Merlin has used such syntax to
force the assembler to generate code for an addressing mode
inconsistent with the address in the data field.

<does not have access to procedures written in Pascal or C,

No access to brain damaged Pascal is not bad, however, C is a
problem.

<does not run under ProDOS 16, requires booting into ProDOS 16 to
<test ProDOS 16 programs, can not take advantage of public domain
<utilities that run under P16 shells, and basically doesn't take
<advantage of the IIgs environment.

Sounds like a valid knock. By the way, does P16 shells refer to APW?
Are there more? Where does one find these public domain utilities?
Are they useful outside assemblers?

<It will probably be ok for dabblers but for people who want to
<mix languages and operate under a real ProDOS 16 environment,
<Merlin 8/16 will probably be a disappointment. 

The word "dabblers" will probably cause the greatest number of
people in net land to mention you and your mom 	in phrases you would
not appreciate.

---------------------------- Onward ---------------------------------

Looking at the APDA catalog I see that you need the following in
order to have an assembler, loader and linker using Apple products.
The top two groups are for people that "bought" beta versions of
the program. The bottom is for people that buy today for the first
time. As you can see, the beta folks paid more and undoubtably put
up with a great deal of grief if postings to the net are any
indication. My friend Loran said the APDA and Apple's motto to beta
testers ought to be "Thank you for paying dearly for support."
(Wake up, its from Bartel's & James Wine Coolers.) 

While the early people got the program earlier, they were probably
much more valuable as beta testers which would lead one to think
that they should of received better treatment money wise. I know
that my two experiences as beta tester yielded a "free" version at
the conclusion of the testing period. However, based on McDonald's
pay of $3.35 per hour, I lost money and was glad to do it since
many of my inputs made it into the final version of the program.

--------------------------- APW Buyers ------------------------------

        Title                        Vers          Cost      Shipping
Apple //gs Programmers Workshop     1.0B1       $100.00       $4.00
Apple //gs Programmers Workshop - Update 1.0B4   $30.00       $ .63
Apple //gs Programmers Workshop - Update 1.00    $30.00       $4.19 
                                                --------      -----
                                                $160.00      $ 8.82


Apple //gs Programmers Workshop     1.0B4       $100.00       $4.00
Apple //gs Programmers Workshop - Update to 1.0  $30.00       $4.19
                                                --------      ------
                                                $130.00       $8.19


Apple //gs Programmers Workshop     1.0         $100.00       $4.19
                                                --------      ------
                                                $100.00       $4.19


--------------------------- ORCA/M Buyers ---------------------------

ORCA/M is the assembler used by David Eyes and Ron Lichty in writing their
excellent book "Programming the 65816" A Brady book, Published by Prentice
Hall Press. Sorry, no ISBN number appears in the book.

In the APDA catalog the phrase "Compatible with APW" appears with
many of the ORCA/M packages. Does this imply that I need or would
want APW if I had ORCA/M? If so, see above for additional cost.

        Title                        Vers          Cost      Shipping
ORCA/M for the //gs                 1.0          $44.95        $2.00
ORCA/M Utility Package #1            ?           $24.95        $ .50
                                                --------      -------
                                                 $69.90        $2.50

There are a number of packages available to enhance ORCA/M i.e.
ORCA/Pascal in the //gs section of APDA. In addition, there are
quite a few listed under Apple // (non //gs), that sometimes say
they are compatible with ORCA/M for the //gs. What does this mean?
Will they work on ProDOS 16? Seems hard to believe. Are versions
coming that will be compatible with all versions of ProDOS?

If I have to buy the complete line of ORCA/M in order to write
programs for all Apples, the price will exceed Merlin by a great amount.

--------------------------- Merlin 8/16 Buyers ----------------------

        Title                        Vers          Cost      Shipping
Merlin 8/16 to Registered Owners                $ 60.00        $ .00

Merlin 8/16 to New Owners before 12/31/87       $ 85.00        $ .00

Merlin 8/16 to New Owners after 12/31/87        $124.95        $ .00

Merlin 8/16 to New Owners from magazines        $ 75.00        $5.00

The last is a guess based on past experience.



I have oftem used the Merlin program SOURCEROR to dissassemble code
so I could fix and/or find out just what it is doing. I did not see
such a disassembler listed for either APW or ORCA/M. Have I missed
something? If not, this is a serious deficiency by those two
products. (Please don't comment back about the monitor
disassembler. It is not to disk and is deficient in every way to
Merlin. Try Merlin before saying otherwise.)

Also, if one wants to program for DOS 3.3 they will have to buy
an additional assembler. What better choice than Merlin?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to answer/flame back, please don't quote all of this as
it is already quite long. A couple of words will suffice for regular
readers of the net.

					Joe Walters
					ihnp4!ihlpf!bird
					Work (312) 979-3091