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From: davidsen@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP (William E. Davidsen Jr)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions,comp.unix.xenix
Subject: Re: Starting a Public Access Unix System -- How?
Message-ID: <7617@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 13-Oct-87 12:59:52 EDT
Article-I.D.: steinmet.7617
Posted: Tue Oct 13 12:59:52 1987
Date-Received: Thu, 15-Oct-87 02:38:17 EDT
References: <834@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM>
Reply-To: davidsen@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen)
Organization: General Electric CRD, Schenectady, NY
Lines: 124
Keywords: questions opinions
Xref: mnetor comp.unix.questions:4516 comp.unix.xenix:950

I waited a few days for someone else to answer this, but I guess it's
that time...

In article <834@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM> pat@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM (Patrick Pesch) writes:
|  	I have been kicking around the idea of starting a public access 
|  Unix system and have some questions about how much work/expense would be 
|  involved, as well as the demand for such systems.  I am especially 
|  [ etc ]
You will not make money on it. You will not break even. People will try
to break your system. This is generally true of any public access
anything. It will take all the time you're willing to give it.

|
|	I would like to start with a 286/386 based machine, running either
|  Microport Unix, Interactive Systems Unix, or SCO Xenix.  I work with SCO 
|  Xenix on a 286 machine, but I am assuming right now that they are all 
|  fairly similiar in terms of "vanilla" SVR2 Unix support.  I would want 
|  to support multiple dial-in lines using one of the 4-8 port serial cards 
|  that appear to be readily available.  Here are some of the questions 
|  that I have about starting such a system:

I would not use a 286 machine, not because it lacks power or whatever,
but because there is so much poorly written software around that assumes
that pointer <same as> int. There will be many users who don't
understand that this is incorrect practice by both K&R and X3J11 ANSI,
and whoo will blame "brain-damaged hardware." I use a unix-ps, since
it's really cheap right now, and uses a 68010.
|
|	o  Is there a user need for such systems in moderately sized
|	   cities?  How would one go about advertising such a service?

Less than you think. The number of people who want UNIX access but don't
have access to a machine at a school, and who will work at dialup
baudrates, is fairly small. Most of my use is people running the BBS.
|
|	o  Is a 286 machine enough to support such a system (i.e. anybody
|	   out there doing it successfully now)  or do I *have* to go
|	   386?

See above. The 286 has adequate power. There have been many reports of
problems with the serial port device drivers in MicroPort V/AT, and I
would suggest using either Bell Tech or SCO Xenix.
|
|	o  Can a machine of the 286/386 class support usenet links, and
|	   provide "news" (Assuming large disks, etc...)?  How much
|	   additional system administration burden does this require?

You will have to expire (read: delete) old articles or have a hugh disk.
See the 'lists' postings for volume, but figure at least 1MB/day coming
in. You will need special versions of news for a 286 (minor midifications).
|
|	o  Would I inherit any overwhelming legal responsibilities
|	   (i.e. down time, data loss, etc...)?

Not if you state what service you are willing to provide. Check with a
lawyer in your state for details.
|
|	o  What sort of charges would be "fair"?  Should they be based on
|	   connect time only, etc...

I get $15 one time fee, Randy (randy@chinet.uucp) Suess gets $50/year,
the last time I checked. You might want to charge for disk usage,
although I just limit mine. If a user is over the limit my program
deletes the largest file in his directory. Repeat as needed. Actually I
delete executables first, to save the source.
|
|	o  Is there much public domain (or cheap) "BBS like" software for 
|	   Unix?  Is this type of software necessary, or would most users 
|	   just want access to one of the standard shells anyway?

I found that BBS was about 70% of my usage (I have mail but not news).
Surprisingly a lot of the balance is nroff (a CPU hog if ever there was
one). I run a seriously hacked version of UNaXcess, which was posted to
the net some time ago. Brandon has asked that no one distribute modified
source, but you might ask him if you want mine. I just followed user
suggestions and closed holes.
|  
|	o  How much TIME would it require (like in hrs/wk)?

Figure 1hr/day just to keep things current. Backup time depends on your
disk size and hardware. Whatever time you want to use getting new
software, etc, will be needed. I can't remember when there wasn't
something I could do if I had time.
|
|  If anybody out there has ANY experiences they would be nice enough to 
|  share with me, I would appreciate it.  I suppose direct E-mail would be
|  the best way to respond, but if you think it may be of general interest,
|  post it for everyone...

Notes:
  You can get a unix-pc (actually 3B1) with 2MB memory and 67MB hard
disk for <$2k. You can add 0.5MB and a 2nd serial for ~$250.
Unfortunately the next step up is expensive: 4 port serial ~$600, tape
backup ~$700. Software will be about $500.

  Use a "smart" serial board for any system with more than 2 lines.
Otherwise you will notice that file transfers are eating your CPU.

  If you offer uucp access ask me for a copy of the article on hardening
the uucp system. If you want to run the users "in a box" I have code to
run a small pseudo system under chroot. This can be handy, but has some
drawbacks related to mail, news, etc. I only use it as a demo system.

  You can get a ready to run 386 box (2MB/40MB 2s/1p) with UNIX for
about $4k. This will probably be my next upgrade.

  In many places you can get a phone line which is called "untimed
message" service. This means that you pay one fee per call, regardless
of length. This cost me about $14/mo, and additional lines, including
hunt group service, cost $4.50/mo. This may not be available in your
area.

  You may find that many people just want to use you as a news or mail
feed for their machines, particularly the users with the $1k version of
the unix-pc and no dedicated line.

  The system will take more money and time than you can imagine. It will
be more fun that you can imagine, too.
================================================================
  This is getting long, drop me a line if you want more info.
-- 
	bill davidsen		(wedu@ge-crd.arpa)
  {uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me