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Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!rutgers!dayton!joe
From: joe@dayton.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Next Generation
Message-ID: <2252@dayton.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 20-Nov-87 09:49:02 EST
Article-I.D.: dayton.2252
Posted: Fri Nov 20 09:49:02 1987
Date-Received: Sun, 22-Nov-87 12:46:30 EST
References: <5294@ccicpg.UUCP> <2803@cbmvax.UUCP> <516@mcdsun.UUCP> <5537@ccicpg.UUCP>
Reply-To: joe@dayton.UUCP (Joseph P. Larson)
Organization: Dayton-Hudson Dept. Store Co.
Lines: 58

In article <5537@ccicpg.UUCP> harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) writes:
>In article <516@mcdsun.UUCP>, fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) writes:
[ stuff deleted -jpl ]
>> Very often you want to use
>> the multiuser protection features to protect you from yourself, to set
>> up alternate environments for doing different sorts of things, etc. 
>
>	I have yet to this day ever had a need to do this. Could you elaborate
>as to why you would do this with UNIX?
>
[ more stuff deleted ]
>	As for protecting me from myself, that's not possible. I have 
>instantaneous acces to root priviledges without su'ing or knowing the root
>password. Don't ask me how, it's just that BIG security hole in UNIX! You
>just have to be root once! 8^) Not hard on a multiuser system! Anyway that's
>not the point. The point is delete privileges.
>
[ ditto ]
>> Running a multitasking system without multiuser capabilities is equivalent
>> to running as root all the time on a Unix system, something that VERY few
>> experienced Unix people would do.
>
>	That's not true. Just use the rarely used "deletable" file protection
>and you can rm * to your hearts content, it won't happen. Again we are into
>notions of users, and there is NO protection of DELETION in UNIX from yourself
>Not to mention root privileges.
>

I think Harald isn't taking into consideration the fact that accidentally
deleting a file isn't the only sort of protection from oneself one might like.
For instance:

	o Overwritting a file with garbage isn't deleting a file.
	o Crashing the system 'cause you forgot to initialize a pointer...

There are a variety of subtle differences of the second one.  I'd hate to
have a program running in the background, doing something useful for me,
while another program is accidentally fiddling in the 1st guy's memory.
Long hours could be spent debugging the wrong program.

I'd also like to point out that the UNIX OS isn't the greatest thing since
3rd generation languages.  It's better than most of the OS's I've used, at
least from my point of view, but there are some things that aren't done
"right".  So if someone says "Porting some of the UNIX multi-user features..."
doesn't mean "Porting only those features from UNIX..."  Nothing wrong with
adding the "DELETE" bit.  Also nothing wrong with adding "SYSTEM" privs
similar to those in VMS.  (You have world, group, user, and system sets
of bits, although those with system privs can usually bypass all checking
if they really *want* to...)

In any case, having the operating system protect you from programming bugs
isn't as good as not having programming bugs, but it sure can help in the
development phase if the machine doesn't crash every time your program
would otherwise "core dump" in UNIX.
-- 
UUCP: rutgers!dayton!joe                Dayton Hudson Department Store Company
ATT : (612) 375-3537                    Joe Larson/MIS 1060
(standard disclaimer...)                700 on the Mall      Mpls, Mn. 55402